Author Topic: About RM game line...  (Read 10205 times)

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Offline JimiSue

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2012, 06:29:52 PM »
Just for this: in armed combat, RM ambush, that is the ability to aim for vital points, is learned in 5 minutes. 10 if you are a slow learner. It’s not a skill, it’s not even something remotely difficult : cranium, eyes, mouth, neck, behind the collarbone, armpits, kidneys, heart, brachial and femoral arteries, groin. The end. A 8 year old can learn to kill by suprise in a matter of seconds.
By that measure, shooting a gun is holding the handle, pointing it in the right direction and pulling the trigger. Melee combat is just holding a weapon and hitting your enemy. Playing a piano concerto is just hitting all the right notes on the keyboard. I agree that the knowledge of where is vulnerable is bloody obvious. I have always thought that Ambush measured not knowledge, but the ability to lay down a precise attack, probably in poor visibility, probably against a moving target, probably against someone whose armour covers up all the vulnerable points, possibly against someone trying very hard not to be ambushed.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2012, 07:21:25 PM »
Just for this: in armed combat, RM ambush, that is the ability to aim for vital points, is learned in 5 minutes. 10 if you are a slow learner. It’s not a skill, it’s not even something remotely difficult : cranium, eyes, mouth, neck, behind the collarbone, armpits, kidneys, heart, brachial and femoral arteries, groin. The end. A 8 year old can learn to kill by suprise in a matter of seconds.

This assumes that all armed ambush has as its goal the quickest possible death. That no one ever wants to take a prisoner or merely put someone out of action. I don't think that's a tenable assumption.

I think of Ambush as more of a tactical skill, the skill of putting yourself in the right position that the target's movements will hand you the shot you want. It's most commonly thought of in connection with ranged weapons, but the same tactical thinking would apply to melee or magical attacks as well. I'd think that in all cases it would have to be done by surprise or by opportunity fire.

The thing is that what defines "the shot you want" is widely variable according to the situation at the time.
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2012, 01:19:14 AM »
By that measure, shooting a gun is holding the handle, pointing it in the right direction and pulling the trigger. Melee combat is just holding a weapon and hitting your enemy. Playing a piano concerto is just hitting all the right notes on the keyboard. I agree that the knowledge of where is vulnerable is bloody obvious. I have always thought that Ambush measured not knowledge, but the ability to lay down a precise attack, probably in poor visibility, probably against a moving target, probably against someone whose armour covers up all the vulnerable points, possibly against someone trying very hard not to be ambushed.

5 years of ancient fencing told me that the hard part of learning is to avoid killing your partner. In fighting, the hard part is not landing a blow, it’s preventing from being hit. What I said was not wild guess, it’s experience. Look at military training: what takes the most time is how to survive, becoming fit for fighting, using material. Not how to kill, that is bloody easy.
Besides, ambush is meant for use on unsuspecting targets. RMSS page 196.
You don’t aim a blow at a foe that is actively defending itself, you hit him were you can and when he is helpless, you finish him off. I positively love fencers that target some areas of my body, I ostensibly leave them unprotected and counterattack while they lose time readying THE blow they want to land.

Armor? Weak points learned in a couple of minutes. Eyes, groin and necks still work admirably. With the right weapon, your don’t even have to aim, just hit very hard on the head or on the neck and laugh like a madman. I mean, if you were given a knife and told to down an unsuspecting guy, how hard would that be?

(And you mix up knowing where to hit and having the skill to do so, skill at arms is managed through weapon skill. But since an unaware foe is not fighting, not even fleeing from you, there should not be any attack roll. Hitting the guy is just like shooting a sitting duck at point blank.

This assumes that all armed ambush has as its goal the quickest possible death. That no one ever wants to take a prisoner or merely put someone out of action. I don't think that's a tenable assumption.

Avoiding to kill someone is far harder than killing, that’s for sure. That’s what the skill subdual is for.

Now, ranged weapons are another matter. To be honest, I don’t think RM handles them well enough but I have absolutely no idea to improve their mechanics without using a new way to resolve attacks.

Ambush should disappear, replaced by a mechanism that would allow for quick and easy dispatch of unaware foes.
Silent kill should disappear, use wrestling instead (basically, you just have to prevent the ennemy from yelling and control his body while it lumps to the ground).
A better control over hit location and critical result, for those who feel it is necessary, should come from weapon skill and nowhere else.
Subdual could be managed or caped by the lores or technicale/trade skills: want to knock out a goblin? Use subdual caped by your skill in first aid (goblins) or goblinoid lore.

Actually, besides hide and silent move, all the skills under the subterfuge group can be replaced by others, from other groups. I have the feeling that they were put there because there was the need to give roguish professions their set of dirt cheap skills (which is not a bad thing, but the end result is redundant skills). In a system without professions, those would just be wiped off the board.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:29:23 AM by Fenrhyl Wulfson »

Offline JimiSue

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2012, 02:00:33 AM »
Ambush should disappear, replaced by a mechanism that would allow for quick and easy dispatch of unaware foes.
Silent kill should disappear, use wrestling instead (basically, you just have to prevent the ennemy from yelling and control his body while it lumps to the ground).
If you want to use the Coup de Grace and Grapple rules from D&D, go right ahead. :) Not for me though. The thing is, no system will ever replace realism, it can just do better or worse facsimiles. I'm happy for weapon skill to increase you chance of landing a more severe critical, and having the Amvbush skill (limited use) available to modify that critical result some.

We all have different game styles, knowledge and opinions, and this just highlights to me that actually, you can't please everyone.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2012, 02:13:51 AM »
[
If you want to use the Coup de Grace and Grapple rules from D&D, go right ahead. :) Not for me though. The thing is, no system will ever replace realism, it can just do better or worse facsimiles. I'm happy for weapon skill to increase you chance of landing a more severe critical, and having the Amvbush skill (limited use) available to modify that critical result some.

We all have different game styles, knowledge and opinions, and this just highlights to me that actually, you can't please everyone.

Coup de grace is broken. Basically, when it comes to smart mechanics, I’d rather not look in that company’s direction. Wrestling works just fine too, no need for that game’s grapple. A simple static maneuver skill check does the job.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2012, 08:53:02 AM »
Now, ranged weapons are another matter. To be honest, I don’t think RM handles them well enough but I have absolutely no idea to improve their mechanics without using a new way to resolve attacks.

I developed a mechanic for firearms combat that dealt with this, and it worked pretty well. Ambush became Sniping, and it modified critical results based on the shooter's status (firing from an ambush or not). I also revamped the crit tables for firearms to deal with hit location, as I always felt that was important. It should work fairly well with a few adjustments for bows.
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Offline jdale

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »
Lots of interesting discussions here, but in the interest of clarity and in respect for Thom's post, it would be better to break them out into their own separate threads rather than try to debate all of them at once in one place.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2012, 01:07:56 PM »
I try to break out subjects when they veer off the main topic, but the topic here is so broad it covers anything, so I've left it alone. Feel free to open narrower focused threads on anything discussed here, been a lot of interesting stuff to read.
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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2012, 01:19:40 PM »
Stuff.
I disagree with a lot of that. I like the complexity of RM. If I want a simple less realistic game I... play a simpler and less realistic game.

While complexity and realism are somewhat tied, you can get a midium complexity system that retains an high degree of believability (calling it realism).
TRoS, for example, sport an high complexity with an higher degree of reliasm. The highest complexityI've ever seen is Imagine RPG, I'll not reccomend that one :-/

Quote
Ambush (and indeed other special skills) definitely should stay skills - if something is a learnable characteristic, it should be a skill and not a mechanic.

Yes, of course.
Ambush and other learnable skills are mainly, your combat skill, what should be the OB. Their are severly tied. You can't be a world heavy champion and not able to hit the liver of an unsuspecting boxer.

Why Ambush, that I'll rename as "Slay", "Assassinate", "Critical hitting" is in place?
I think to mitigate this: Conan the barbarian approaches Joe Dead from behind. It's 200OB broadsword slice/puncture from above, side, wherever. He rolls OpenEnded to 250 + 200OB = 450. He score Max hits and an E critical.
He rolls d100 for an E and ... 01 ... +1 Hits.

The final outcame, from my point of view, is inconsistent with all the previous factors (so to the opening post). Dissecting why:
  • Conan is a Master swordsman
  • Unaware opponent, in other words defensless.
  • Armored or not you have exceeded whatever armour he had (and E critical with max hit)
  • Not a fumble, instead a solid roll (open ended or not)
  • You really hit him, since max hits means a contact with your oppenents with your weapon
  • You really should have make him suffer... an E critical. Not necessarily killing him but...
  • instead, if it's a full Hits, your blow could be totally without consequences.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2012, 01:57:56 PM »
I really would have skill ranks in weapon skill modify the criticals in given circumstances, not a separate skill. Or just give a flat bonus to critical according to circumstances.

From my point of view, here is the main issue. A wants to backstab B.

A rolls for hiding.
A rolls for silent move.
B rolls for awareness or sense ambush
A rolls for attack
A rolls for ambush
A rolls for critical

And event with 40 ranks in ambush, if you roll 01 for the critical, B survives without any severe injury.

Six rolls? Seriously ? That’s Rolemaster, not Dicemaster :p

At the very moment B fails is awareness roll, he should be dead meat. That’s what I do in my game, and my players love it (even knowing they can fall victim to this rule… they just pay extra attention to their backs and actually buy ranks in sense ambush and awareness).

Offline mistrornge

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2012, 09:18:51 PM »
I have GMed entire 8 hour games without opening a book.
The rules are great and help explain some of the reality and the mechanics work. However, I seriously think the game needs a program to run combat. It would help newer players and especially GMs entry into the game. I can imagine sitting down to play and spending 5 minutes finding a specific modifier or chart needed while your players look on.
Keeping track of hits, exhaustion, pp, bleeding, and injury mods can be rough.
We had a great long running battle where 6 PCs killed several waves of giant ants. With the entire group low on power, exhsustion or hits with resultant mods it made things much more realistic.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:15 PM »
I prefer not to crack a book either unless of course I have to.  OTOH, my three ring binder of copied tables and such is very close to a book  ;D

One house rule I like is allowing crits to me adjusted by half ranks in weapon when striking a stunned foe.  Full ranks can be used if foe is stunned with no parry.  Players like it, and have learned when stunned with no parry, surrender makes GREAT sense.

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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2012, 03:05:13 AM »
Given the system is simple, I rarely open a book for something else than a spell or skill description.

Offline pastaav

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2012, 03:01:28 PM »
I don't know about your games but in mine if I as GM said....roll a perceptions roll...looks like you missed the ambush...you are an unaware target so you are automatically dead...then I would soon have a empty gaming table.

It is given that there are situations when it is more difficult to kill in the game than realistic. Using poisons is a prime example. There are loads of ways to poison a person in a way that can't realistically detected in advance and the outcome is given to be death if the victim ingest the poison. Problem is just that it makes a lousy game if it is too easy to loose you character or kill you opponent.

I think that it is essential that any critical can kill because else a number of weapons become really useless. The gaming mechanics that balance the randomness of the criticals do their work reasonably well. The areas that truly need to be addressed is more connected to character creation. Combat is one of the main selling points of the game and starting to improve that area is not sane if we at the same time have the situation that newbies spend hours to grasp character creation.
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 03:30:43 PM »
I don't know about your games but in mine if I as GM said....roll a perceptions roll...looks like you missed the ambush...you are an unaware target so you are automatically dead...then I would soon have a empty gaming table.

I just had a table were someone was concentrating on a detect enemies spell every time he was alone and the others always went by pair. Harsher games bring better tactics. But it indeed is a GM choice. It’s just a simple tweak, and a proof that RM allows for very varied gamestyles.

I agree with you about character creation, finding a way to allow for the great diversity permited by RM and making it simpler to use is quite a challenge.

Thinking about power points, exhaustion points and hit points, I was wondering if we could just use exhaustion. Spell would consume exhaustion based on how succesful they are (blunders draining the pool dramatically, perfect succes costing few points). This pool would be developped at a slow rate. Just throwing an idea.

Offline jdale

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 06:34:16 PM »
Using exhaustion points for magic is interesting. It does have an effect that talented mages need a high Constitution. In some ways it becomes more important than the realm stat. So much for the archetypical feeble old mage.

This is a good solution for GURPS, where there are few stats. You wouldn't want to put everything on Intelligence. But RM has more dimensions.
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Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 06:44:54 PM »
In RM, it can’t come along. It’d take a modification of spells cost.

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2012, 06:16:53 AM »
In RM, it can’t come along. It’d take a modification of spells cost.

This post has born with some hope of revisioning  ;)

I'd love to see spell poits as Endurance points, it'll make much more sense to me, like in Ars Magica.
It's intriguing to see mages that will not use heavy armours type to reduce physical stress.

Offline pastaav

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2012, 01:23:52 PM »
Thinking about power points, exhaustion points and hit points, I was wondering if we could just use exhaustion. Spell would consume exhaustion based on how succesful they are (blunders draining the pool dramatically, perfect succes costing few points). This pool would be developped at a slow rate. Just throwing an idea.

Yes you can. The only downside is that some people might associate this style of power too much with psion powers. Personally I think such system would be a great benefit to the fantasy game since it make more easy to represent innate abilities of races, monsters and superheroes. The idea that you must keep the magic and psion systems separate by using different rule mechanics is bad if you ask me since limit the design of the game rules without real benefits.
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Offline Kristen Mork

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Re: About RM game line...
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2012, 01:55:28 PM »
Thinking about power points, exhaustion points and hit points, I was wondering if we could just use exhaustion. Spell would consume exhaustion based on how succesful they are (blunders draining the pool dramatically, perfect succes costing few points). This pool would be developped at a slow rate. Just throwing an idea.

Sounds like a worthy Guild Companion submission.  ;)