Topic: RMU spell: Change profession

[katastrophe]

I am at a loss for words...trying to evaluate professional change spells without looking at DP spent? 

That is why I made three full characters, as indicated above. They all spent 60 DP per level (85 in the first two). I could upload the entire charatcer sheets (spreadhseet version), but if you don't trust my judgement, you can just as well invest 20 minutes and do it yourself to see that the supposed balance problem just doesn't exist.

The fact that you look at those 3 characters and think #1 is not significantly more powerful and flexible than #s 2 & 3 shows you really don’t grasp balance at all.

I find it odd that for your example you chose a combination that’s not exactly extremely powerful and mentalism has decent combat point breaks anyway.

Maybe your thought experiment would work better with a fighter magician. Or maybe fighter sorcerer. Or maybe fighter mentalist.

You’re stuck on this and should play it to your heart’s desire. Very few people see the need for it since this is a skills based game and characters can develop whatever they want and can find someone to train them. It being inefficient is inherent in the game design so that by 20th level everyone isn’t running around looking essentially the same - which would be the result if PCs could swap through classes when they attain certain benchmarks. Reviving what I said previously, prestige classes.

[pastaav]

I am at a loss for words...trying to evaluate professional change spells without looking at DP spent? 

That is why I made three full characters, as indicated above. They all spent 60 DP per level (85 in the first two). I could upload the entire charatcer sheets (spreadhseet version), but if you don't trust my judgement, you can just as well invest 20 minutes and do it yourself to see that the supposed balance problem just doesn't exist.

There is no point with you trying to upload character spreadsheets to prove you did not break the 60 DP per level rule when you bought different skills so you are comparing apples to oranges. Anyone of us can create one-trick pony characters, or make defective skill choices for a certain profession, none of this prove your wanted house rule is balanced.

If you want to make a valid comparison you need to buy exactly the same skills for all characters and compare how much DP each character spent. If you cannot fit the skill purchase below 60 without changing profession your profession change is so unbalancing that it takes cheating to match. If you can fit all the skills within the 60 limit but need different fractions of the available DP you have to look how large difference to determine the level of unbalance.

IMHO if you are dead set on having profession change you should look at HARP that has costs made for allowing profession change.

[jdale]

Fighters can't learn Healer base lists, not even at the Restricted cost, because they aren't the right realm (and can't be, because those are hybrid lists).

If a magical Realm is learned and not inborn, that is true. But if your Realm is an inborn quality, then of course there could be Fighters with a hybrid Realms well, I'd say. But that, of course, depends on the game world.

RAW you cannot. If you want to give some Arms characters the free benefit of access to more spell lists and a +10 RR for a second realm, I guess you can do that. I would recommend charging a DP cost for it though. The RR bonus alone is a 6 DP talent, and one that is not normally available to a character (it's a racial talent). In the earlier drafts when we had Additional Realm as a talent, it was 30 DP.

[Thot]

Fighters can't learn Healer base lists, not even at the Restricted cost, because they aren't the right realm (and can't be, because those are hybrid lists).

If a magical Realm is learned and not inborn, that is true. But if your Realm is an inborn quality, then of course there could be Fighters with a hybrid Realms well, I'd say. But that, of course, depends on the game world.

RAW you cannot. If you want to give some Arms characters the free benefit of access to more spell lists and a +10 RR for a second realm, I guess you can do that. I would recommend charging a DP cost for it though. The RR bonus alone is a 6 DP talent, and one that is not normally available to a character (it's a racial talent). In the earlier drafts when we had Additional Realm as a talent, it was 30 DP.

Hm. Or maybe one would just use the rules for creating hybrid magic user professions. So the above Fighter would not be a Fighter, but a "hybrid Channeling-Mentalism Fighter", who pays a few steps higher for some skills.

[Thot]

[...]
The fact that you look at those 3 characters and think #1 is not significantly more powerful and flexible than #s 2 & 3 shows you really don’t grasp balance at all.

Dude. If you let any of these two duel, it will not be a one-sided fight. I know, I know, I must be an idiot, you are a wise Loremaster of RM, but maybe just try it out?

I find it odd that for your example you chose a combination that’s not exactly extremely powerful and mentalism has decent combat point breaks anyway.

That is, of course, because of my sinister intention to warp the facts by forbidding everybody else to choose any other combination.

Maybe your thought experiment would work better with a fighter magician.

Maybe someone who thinks that should then try it out.

You’re stuck on this and should play it to your heart’s desire. Very few people see the need for it since this is a skills based game and characters can develop whatever they want and can find someone to train them. It being inefficient is inherent in the game design so that by 20th level everyone isn’t running around looking essentially the same - which would be the result if PCs could swap through classes when they attain certain benchmarks. Reviving what I said previously, prestige classes.

So the actual numbers don't interest you in the slightest. Okay, but then maybe just don't bother with arguing about "balance"?

[Thot]

[...]
If you want to make a valid comparison you need to buy exactly the same skills for all characters and compare how much DP each character spent.
[...]

That would be completely unrealistic use of such rules. Nobody would use a profession change spell in such a way. If you are concerned about balance, you need to show how this could be exploited. I have tried to exploit it and found no big balance issues. You are free to try the same and prove your point.

But as it stands now, you are arguing an outdated concern for an older verison of RM.

[pastaav]

[...]
If you want to make a valid comparison you need to buy exactly the same skills for all characters and compare how much DP each character spent.
[...]

That would be completely unrealistic use of such rules. Nobody would use a profession change spell in such a way.

There are 8 pages of discussion with a massive number of examples how a spell that change skill cost can be abused so your objection is obviously pointless. Feel free to reread the thread if you want to understand why your idea is unbalanced since I won't repeat myself.

[Thot]

[...]
There are 8 pages of discussion with a massive number of examples how a spell that change skill cost can be abused
[...]

I have checked agin. No, there are not. There are failed attempts to somehow construe such a claim, but any closer look at these claims and preachings makes them fall apart.

It's an error derived from people not reading what RMU sais, but instead remembering what they tried out in RM2 some decades back. Not a valid argument for the current game.

You are, of course, invited to ACTUALLY prove me wrong by making such hybrid characters that are totally exploiting the huge gaps in "balance" that you believe to exist there.

But until you succeeed at that, I'll have to point out that your opinion is outdated.

[jdale]

You made a fighter/healer who is able to operate as a more than competent combatant and healer, a healer with a weapon who is a distinctly inferior combatant especially in terms of defense, and a fighter with healer lists that is unsupportable by the rules.

The fighter/healer is obviously superior in terms of abilities and story share. The synergy of massive self-healing capabilities with a main combatant role exaggerates that considerably.

[Thot]

You made a fighter/healer who is able to operate as a more than competent combatant and healer, a healer with a weapon who is a distinctly inferior combatant especially in terms of defense, and a fighter with healer lists that is unsupportable by the rules.
The fighter/healer is obviously superior in terms of abilities and story share. The synergy of massive self-healing capabilities with a main combatant role exaggerates that considerably.

But it's not a main combatant role in a level 20 campaign, but in a level 10 campaign.  The figher/healer will have a much harder time getting the enemy's defenses for lack of OB, as he's missing 30 pints of OB.

[jdale]

The main combatants my current game, at level 9, have OBs of 114, 130, 145, 147. I don't think an OB lagging by 30 is disqualifying. Maybe in some circumstances they will need to focus on the mooks and not the boss, or work to get a positional advantage. The fighter/healer will be really good as a tank, anyway, since they can soak hits like nobody's business.

[katastrophe]

[...]
The fact that you look at those 3 characters and think #1 is not significantly more powerful and flexible than #s 2 & 3 shows you really don’t grasp balance at all.

Dude. If you let any of these two duel, it will not be a one-sided fight. I know, I know, I must be an idiot, you are a wise Loremaster of RM, but maybe just try it out?

I find it odd that for your example you chose a combination that’s not exactly extremely powerful and mentalism has decent combat point breaks anyway.

That is, of course, because of my sinister intention to warp the facts by forbidding everybody else to choose any other combination.

Maybe your thought experiment would work better with a fighter magician.

Maybe someone who thinks that should then try it out.

You’re stuck on this and should play it to your heart’s desire. Very few people see the need for it since this is a skills based game and characters can develop whatever they want and can find someone to train them. It being inefficient is inherent in the game design so that by 20th level everyone isn’t running around looking essentially the same - which would be the result if PCs could swap through classes when they attain certain benchmarks. Reviving what I said previously, prestige classes.

So the actual numbers don't interest you in the slightest. Okay, but then maybe just don't bother with arguing about "balance"?

Goodness man

Just because it’s not one sided if they duel doesn’t mean one isn’t far more powerful or flexible. Since you chose non-offensive and essentially non-buffing class spells they are essentially similar with a weapon. Hence why I suggested a fighter/magician or sorcerer since the additional offensive and defensive spells would make it more clear just how unbalanced your thought experiment is.

Nonetheless, a pure magic user with a 100 OB with a weapon is pretty difficult to attain even at 20th level, much less multiple weapons and a slew of combat maneuvers.

Moreover, your approach negates the need for semis altogether.

[Thot]

The main combatants my current game, at level 9, have OBs of 114, 130, 145, 147.

The OB was just one example. The Pure Fighter from above is better at everything fighter-related. Multi attacks, special circumstances, switching weapons, etc. If one is concerned about balance, a wide spread as you describe means the 114 OB type will have other qualities that make up for the lack in OB, which is what the Fighter-turned-Healer from above has as well. (And if you are not concerened about balance, excellent, thenm let's return to the actual question, which is the level of the spells proposed in this thread).

I don't think an OB lagging by 30 is disqualifying. Maybe in some circumstances they will need to focus on the mooks and not the boss, or work to get a positional advantage. The fighter/healer will be really good as a tank, anyway, since they can soak hits like nobody's business.

Well, the Healer with some fighter skills would do that even better.

[Thot]

[...]
Just because it’s not one sided if they duel doesn’t mean one isn’t far more powerful or flexible. [...]

Depending on the circumstances, they can be very dissimilar in power, sure. Place the Pure Fioghter in a hospital trying to save people, and he'll faiul utterly. In Combat, however, these three are somewhat equivalent, to the point that the various stats of the character are less relevant than how the characters are actually plaed. And what more balance can you want?

Hence why I suggested a fighter/magician or sorcerer since the additional offensive and defensive spells would make it more clear just how unbalanced your thought experiment is.

https://i.giphy.com/media/3o84sw9CmwYpAnRRni/giphy.webp

Nonetheless, a pure magic user with a 100 OB with a weapon is pretty difficult to attain even at 20th level, much less multiple weapons and a slew of combat maneuvers.

Yes, and a change of profession via such a spell is a way to achieve that abit more efficiently, but at the cost of never being such a good caster as the guy who did not completely refocus is learning interests.

Moreover, your approach negates the need for semis altogether.

It does not, because the semi can do what the two pure forms cannot: Level both magic and arms within the same level. This will of course be most impactful when you are playing between levelling, as opposed to creating a 20th level character from the start. But even in the latter case, the center of gravity of his efficiency in learning is different than for any "purists" that change professions every other level or so.

[jdale]

The main combatants my current game, at level 9, have OBs of 114, 130, 145, 147.

The OB was just one example. The Pure Fighter from above is better at everything fighter-related. Multi attacks, special circumstances, switching weapons, etc. If one is concerned about balance, a wide spread as you describe means the 114 OB type will have other qualities that make up for the lack in OB, which is what the Fighter-turned-Healer from above has as well. (And if you are not concerened about balance, excellent, thenm let's return to the actual question, which is the level of the spells proposed in this thread).

The thing about the expertise skills now is that you don't need to develop them forever. For example, +50 in Footwork is generally going to be plenty. +75 in Multiple Attacks gets you that second attack. So, yes, the pure fighter is going to be a better fighter, but that's not a valid comparison because the pure fighter doesn't have the magic. You should be comparing the fighter/healer to a corresponding semi profession; a semi is also going to have a very limited set of expertise skills, and I think the fighter/healer is surpassing that. The fighter/healer is also surpassing them significantly in number of spell lists. Extreme specialization will always pay off, it's the semis that are rendered irrelevant and inferior by changing professions.

[tbigness]

I thought this argument was to remake the character to a different profession altogether not just some of the levels or just jump off from a specific level build to add a multi-class like DND. That changes everything and I am out for that.

[katastrophe]

Though he claims it is not to make multiclass characters, that is exactly what it is designed to do. We called it from the beginning and then he changed it to "same person but rebuilt from level 1 into the new class", but the reality is that is and always was a shortcut to multiclassing.

[nash]

Though he claims it is not to make multiclass characters, that is exactly what it is designed to do. We called it from the beginning and then he changed it to "same person but rebuilt from level 1 into the new class", but the reality is that is and always was a shortcut to multiclassing.

I thought I called that on my first comment:

So basically the existence of the spell means multi-professions is now a thing.

Anyway - it's impossible to balance, as it changes DP costs, and rolemaster is balanced around DP costs.   It breaks the first assumption in the way RM was designed.

[Thot]

Though he claims it is not to make multiclass characters,

Where does anyone claim that?

[Thot]

I thought this argument was to remake the character to a different profession altogether not just some of the levels or just jump off from a specific level build to add a multi-class like DND. That changes everything and I am out for that.

There are two versions of the spell discussed in this thread, one being a "change the profession at some point", and the other being "completely relevel the character".

Both are unproblematic, as anyone who ACTUALLY builds a few examples will easily see. And at this point, I am unwilling to discuss this whole subject with anyone who hasn't done so.