Author Topic: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?  (Read 9749 times)

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Offline dutch206

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What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« on: December 31, 2011, 07:33:05 PM »
I'm going to suggest some ideas to get the conversation rolling.  "Capital E" evil isn't just about being cruel, selfish, and domineering IMO.

I would say Evil can be defined by one or more of the following:

-Active worship of a demon lord or a god of destruction (like Apep or Tharizdun).
-Knowledge and/or use of an 'evil' spell list from Spell Law.
-Using an 'evil' item to cause harm to others.

These are the only circumstances under which I can see the "detect evil" spell returning a positive answer.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 08:49:19 PM »
Magic is power, and like electrical power, it has a polarity.  When the polarity is reversed, you get dark magic, or evil.

Following this line of logic, there could be ages of good and ages of evil, depending on the current polarity of magic.  Picture is as the earths magnetic feild, which flips every 10,000 yrs or so.
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Offline bpowell

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 12:21:47 AM »
Evil is the destruction of order and good in the multiverse.  Or as my players might say any of my NPCs.

One time I had then investigating a dark mage that was tryiing to open a gate to one of the planes of the abbys.  They came across a chest and when they opened it they found 24 baby skulls.  One of the asked why 24, I looked at them and said...."Well looking at Standard Man (an actual manual used in Radiation Protection) I calculated the volume of the chest and 25 would not fit."

That and the "baby" drider hatching and looking at one of the players and saying ..."mama?"

On second thought evil is....me as a DM.

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 05:07:12 AM »
Evil is what you decide it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

Offline dutch206

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 09:02:10 AM »
Evil is the destruction of order and good in the multiverse.  Or as my players might say any of my NPCs.

One time I had then investigating a dark mage that was tryiing to open a gate to one of the planes of the abbys.  They came across a chest and when they opened it they found 24 baby skulls.  One of the asked why 24, I looked at them and said...."Well looking at Standard Man (an actual manual used in Radiation Protection) I calculated the volume of the chest and 25 would not fit."

That and the "baby" drider hatching and looking at one of the players and saying ..."mama?"

On second thought evil is....me as a DM.

 :laugh1:
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 01:52:47 PM »
I base it largely on the actions of the character.

There have been Necromancers that were not "evil" in certain instances and there have been 'Priests' that were members of a "good" group of some kind that did something very evil (enough so to instantly be banished from the group).
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Offline Marc R

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 02:36:59 PM »
On a pure meta angle, if you mean E-vil as in "Evil Base Lists" then to me "Evil" is:

Any side affect that is sufficiently bad to balance out the advantage of a full set of extra full powered base lists.

Like, it's not enough to just be mean, cruel, or foul personally. . .your evilness needs to come with something so bad that it's not just some free lists.

Like

"When I die Cthulhu eats my soul, and occasionally his squirmness sends me orders for things I must do, or be destroyed"

or

"This evil mentalism requires you to delve into mental constructs so alien, that they slowly drive you insane."

Something, anything, and there are an infinite range of possible "evil" hooks, but it just has to be something a step past "I'm nasty and greedy and mean."
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 06:11:12 PM »
I like Granny Weatherwax's standard: You treat people as things.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 07:38:05 PM »
I like Granny Weatherwax's standard: You treat people as things.

When you can't get it to work throw it across the room? ;)
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Offline dutch206

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 08:37:39 AM »
Take the Sorcerer base lists for instance.  They deal with demonic possession, soul destruction, and dark channeling projections.  I really can't think of a way that could be a 'good'-aligned profession. 

Nice girls just do things like that.  LOL
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Offline markc

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 11:51:25 AM »
 If I am a player "Good is anything I do and Evil what they do to me or my friends and loved ones", if I am a GM "Evil is defined by the deities outlook and what they ask of their priests. From that you can get a standard of behavior for the rest of the world."


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Offline David Johansen

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 02:06:36 PM »
The difficult thing is that evil often thinks it's good.  Is a paladin that kills goblin children good or evil?  He gives to the poor, lives an austare life, and having seen the depradations of goblins in all his days knows that the little critters are weak and cute now but will be murdering children and burning villages soon enough.  What of divine inquisitions?  In a world with real dark cults with dark powers and darker masters?

The answer is at best deeply complex.  The generic fantasy answer is ugly and rude.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 03:39:43 PM »
Take the Sorcerer base lists for instance.  They deal with demonic possession, soul destruction, and dark channeling projections.  I really can't think of a way that could be a 'good'-aligned profession.

What if the character has turned against evil and is using those powers on what is considered evil though?  Some of that hinges on how they are obtaining the power... which can become a sticky mess depending on your view of the realms or where power originates.

For example... a Necromancer that is Essence/Channeling who obtains it's power from a Sphere of Influence rather than directly from a deity.  Death fuels them.  This does not automatically mean they are evil or that it needs to be a violent death that feeds them.  Enough people may die of natural causes on a world-wide basis that this is more than enough energy to distribute among those who 'follow' it.  So it becomes a matter of how that Necromancer uses it's powers.  Then you get into how the afterlife works.  If that Necromancer is creating a bunch of skeletons for manual labor and building a wall around a "good" city it becomes a matter of if the world view thinks the skeletons are autonomous tools or the dead person pulled back from "rest" and having their soul enslaved.

You can often explain the foundation of something in very different ways.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 04:45:45 PM »
Situational ethics are fine for the real world, but it means there is no such thing as TRUE evil or a SOURCE of evil.  If there is a source, evil will be well defined and situational ethics used to trick the otherwise good or nuetral to commit evil.

Good is about love, and love is all about acceptance and sacrifice.  Evil uses this fact to great effect because when faced with the choice, few are willing to die for anything and will thus prove willing to harm or kill others, using situational ethics to explain away their failing.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 05:25:06 PM »
Evil will always win because Good is dumb.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 06:24:54 PM »
...demonic possession, soul destruction...

Quote
Nice girls just do things like that.  LOL

Actually this reminds me of someone I dated for a while...  ::)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 06:31:06 PM »
P.B.F.H.  :o
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Offline Marc R

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 08:52:49 PM »
Shrug. . .if you're talking about subjective concepts of "Evil" the answer is "whatever you want" and unless you're looking for "how do you do evil in your game?" there's no real answer to the question.

If the question instead is in terms of the rules, as in "What's capitol E evil in a gameworld" you're getting into rules things that tie into mechanics for which there are actual answers.

Like, "I think you're evil" falls under the "Everyone's got an opinion and a. . .ahem. . ." logic.

while "You detect as evil" gets into the concepts of actual evil. . . .

The rules actually define it, in that Evil needs to be something absolute and flagged as evil within the campaign.

Something "Of Darkness" is touched by or has it's origin in evil, but might not be definitively evil.

(Flip side logic for "Good" and "Of the light" per the rules).

It's not for every game, and getting into capitol E evil and G good implies some form of absolute morality. . .i.e. Demons are evil, no discussion, and angels are good no discussion, if you find that confusing, then evidently you're at least of darkness, if not outright evil yourself.

In more morally ambivalent games, a lot of times "Evil" is ruled as "Enemy". . . .so priests of Thor detect giants as evil, while a priest of Loki might not. . .and things get rather complicated, as they always do when morality is subjective rather than absolute.

Using Evil and Good in a game without moral absolutism in play gets very squishy, and in the end, those two terms are meaningless in any objective sense in those games. . ."you're evil because I choose to see you that way" doesn't really need rules, that's how most people behave most of the time in the real world, and it often leads to rather nasty acts in extremes.

Trying to pin any absolute that's not tied to a game mechanism. . .i.e. short of the logic of "Demons are absolutely evil because it says so on page 32" . . .is likely never ever going to result in more than a handful of posters agreeing. . .because it's gone all squishy.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 09:08:03 PM »
Really it's just like any abstract measurement.  You just need to pick a bench mark from one point and define the other points from it.  If good is about kindness, love, and compassion then evil is about cruelty, hate, and sadism.

Most people don't really fill both ends of the spectrum.  An option I put together for my D&D retro clone (what can I say, everyone was doing it last year) was that you picked three personality traits from a list and they tainted your alignment detection spectrum.  A person with one chaos trait and one order trait shows up as neutral.  If they've got a chaos and a good trait, they show up as chaotic good.  And no, it doesn't allow for true neutral.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: What is "evil" in Rolemaster?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 09:26:15 PM »
Well, that's as close as I get to a moral absolute in my games. There are "evil" Gods and "good" Gods, yes, but the "evil" people don't think of themselves as evil, in general.

So as close as I have to "that's evil" from other than a theological standpoint is, "he treats people as things".
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