Topic: Official Rulling please!

[mightypawn]

In the thread Melee vs Missile, the subject of Initiative modifiers came up.

here's the rules....

RMSS PG 40

INITIATIVE DETERMINATION PHASE
...
Declared Movement ................... -1 per 10% of maximum
movement activity (based on declared pace)

RMSS PG 41

SNAP ACTION PHASE
.....
• 20% is the maximum activity for a movement action.

Question #1

Since the 20% of movement for the Snap action phase is the Maximum activity for that phase, do we correlate that as 100% of Maximum Activity for the Snap Action Phase?

IE. if the BMR is 50', then 10' would be 20% at normal pace, and 20' would be 20% at running pace.  Is the 10' walking, or 20' running equal to 100% of Maximum Activity as defined in these rules?  It seems apparent to me that it is, but some disagree.

Question #2

In many FRP games a single d10, or d20 is used for initiative determination.  One of the things I LOVE about RoleMaster is the idea of summing dice to create the bell curve effect.

In RMFRP's case, initiative is determined by 2d10.  It seems to me that we are therefore dividing each combat phase into 20 parts in order to decide when each action actually happens.

The rules clearly say the combatant receives a penalty of -1 per 10% of Maximum activity.  Thus, out of 20 time segments, someone who uses their full movement for that phase is only penalized for half of the total time, even tho they have clearly used up all of the time allotted. 

It seems to me that somewhere in the course of  game development the rules for the initiative roll changed from 1d10 to 2d10. 

Finally, the Question is, should the rule modify the initiative by -2/10% Maximum action?  I think this is clearly indicated, but again, some disagree...

I thank you in advance for considering these issues.

[markc]

  This is not an official rule as I am not not the official rules person but I think the below answers will help you out.


1) The penalty is for your whole action total not the max action total in a phase. So if a combatent moves its max allowance in the phase the init penalty would be -2.


2) I was not here during the design phase of RM as I am only an 15 or so year convert but from what I have seen and reasoned out.
 a) RM was a d100 based game to keep things simple roll 2d10 and add instead of rolling 2d10 with one dice being the 10's and one dice being the one's. So I think it was always 2d10 to make it different from D&D 2's 10 segments.
 b1) When created I think the combat system looked at the % of action in a round things took to achieve, again 100 based. But it can also be viewed as a 20 system as I have not seen any % activities that tend to deviate from X5% or X0%. But you can have those %, for example melee combat is a range of value from 60% to 80%. So they could have some action % of 21% and a melee combat action of 79%.
  So I think it is more of a 100 segment system than a 20 segment system. but if the numbers work out often you can divide the round into 20 segments.
 b2) On the question should the movement penalty be changed to -2 per 10% or the penalty be changed to -2 per 10% action I do not have a good answer right now. I think the Powers That Be  should talk about it and make a ruling.


 But having said all of that many RM games have custom combat systems that are based somewhat on the RM system or have grown out of the RM system. Their is one system Cheets (IIRC the name and I often get it wrong) that is second based and actions take time to perform, when you are done with your action you can go again. IIRC there is a version of this system in one of the RM2 Companions.
  I use an action based system myself and I like it as faster characters have an advantage in all actions like it should be, IMHO. I do not plan on releasing it for anyone so I will not provide it for anyone.


Does that help?
MDC

[mightypawn]

1) The penalty is for your whole action total not the max action total in a phase. So if a combatent moves its max allowance in the phase the init penalty would be -2.

Mark, if you look at the rule, it clearly says "percent of Maximum activity" and then Maximum activity is Defined as 20% for Snap action, 50% for Normal Action, and 80% for Deliberate action. 

Thus

Maximum activity is very different from Normal BMR, it is a percentage of Normal BMR, and by definition has it's own individual total and/or percentages thereof.

You will notice in the rule that it is the percentage of the Maximum Movement Activity, Not the BMR, that is to be calculated.

Where do you get 100 segments in a round?

For each phase, there are 20 individual segments based on the 2d10 roll.

I'll break it down for ya.

Each Combat Round is 10 Seconds.....

• The Snap action phase is up to 20%.  Or, up to 2 seconds.
• The Normal Action phase is up to 50%.  Or, up to 5 second.
• The Deliberate Action phase is up to 80%.  Or up to 8 Seconds

Each phase has it's own "Maximum Movement Action" that is relative to the Scenario, and takes into account:

• The Combatants BMR
• The Combatants declared movement speed
• The phase in question

If, as in the example, a combatant's BMR is 50' and he declares he is running 20' in the Snap Action Phase, then:

• Maximum Movment Activity= (50' BMR) x (2 Running) x (20% Maximum Activity in the Snap action Phase) = 20'

Thus if the said combatant wants to compute his Percentage of Maximum Movement Activity, then:
 

• Percentage Maximum Movement Activity = (20' distance Moved) / (20' Maximum Moving Activity) = 100%

P.S.  The pages Quoted in my initial post are not in the RMSS, they are in the RMFRP.  Many Appologies.  It is also in the RMSS on page 74

[providence13]

I don't know official, but I believe the Snap Action Phase is limited by 20%Activity for Movement. Not 20%Activity for all actions.
Movement is based on Pace, so the distance covered could be different based on how fast you move, but it would be limited by 20%Activity.
Note: Some GM's don't allow max Pace, Dash for example, in Snap Phase.

Also, not everyone uses the Initiative mods as a factor of time. It may seem reasonable that 2d10 is 20 units of a 10 second round but not everyone plays by that method. Official rulings were pretty heated and wishy washy as I recall.

Look at the forums on the Differences between "N" RM and "Y" RM. Some used 2d10, some used 3d10...some use a second by second round that you are trying to emulate. I think second by second combat is in the vault.
I hope you get answers that help.

[mightypawn]

Two things I want to clarify:

1) I am NOT saying that Marks way is wrong, I am only saying that Marks way is not what is defined in RMFRP and RMSS.

2) The initiative penalty from the Maximum Moving Activity is VARIABLE and dependent on the phase in question.

Thus:

If, as in the example, a combatant's BMR is 50' and he declares he is running 20' in the Snap Action Phase, and we have calculated that as 100% Action for the Snap Action Phase Thus:

• it receives a modifier of -10 to Initiative in the Snap Action Phase.

BUT!

• It only gets a -4 to initiative in the Normal Action Phase
• • 20' / 50' x 2 x 50% = 40%
     
• it only gets a -2 to initiative in the Deliberate Action Phase. (Since the rule only accounts for full 10% increments I round down)
• • 20' / 50' x 2 x 80% = 25%

[mightypawn]

I don't know official, but I believe the Snap Action Phase is limited by 20%Activity for Movement. Not 20%Activity for all actions.
Movement is based on Pace, so the distance covered could be different based on how fast you move, but it would be limited by 20%Activity.
Note: Some GM's don't allow max Pace, Dash for example, in Snap Phase.

Also, not everyone uses the Initiative mods as a factor of time. It may seem reasonable that 2d10 is 20 units of a 10 second round but not everyone plays by that method. Official rulings were pretty heated and wishy washy as I recall.

Look at the forums on the Differences between "N" RM and "Y" RM. Some used 2d10, some used 3d10...some use a second by second round that you are trying to emulate. I think second by second combat is in the vault.
I hope you get answers that help.

Again, I am not interested in everyone's personal systems....  I am only interested in the definitions set by the printed rules in RMSS and RMFRP.

Of course, RoleMaster is as awesome as it is because we have the ability to modify it however we wish. 

BUT

We cannot choose to accept or reject a certain rule if it is in question or somehow unclear.  Therefore I am asking for an official ruling on the matter.

[Thom @ ICE]

Marc Rosen and/or Nicholas Caldwell will be able to provide the "official ruling" that you are requesting.

[Ecthelion]

Nothing official, only my interpretation of the rules which follows...

Since the 20% of movement for the Snap action phase is the Maximum activity for that phase, do we correlate that as 100% of Maximum Activity for the Snap Action Phase?

No, it's 20% of the activity in that phase IMO. Activity for movement is handled differently than for other actions. Otherwise, and if using the 20% movement as 100% activity for the Snap Action Phase alone, we would have left further attacks left after attacking in the Snap Action Phase and using the 100% attack action only as 100% for that phase.

IE. if the BMR is 50', then 10' would be 20% at normal pace, and 20' would be 20% at running pace.  Is the 10' walking, or 20' running equal to 100% of Maximum Activity as defined in these rules?  It seems apparent to me that it is, but some disagree.

So do I, for the reason mentioned above.

In RMFRP's case, initiative is determined by 2d10.  It seems to me that we are therefore dividing each combat phase into 20 parts in order to decide when each action actually happens.

You seem to ignore the modifiers, e.g. Qu bonus or penalties due to wounds, which make it more than 20 parts.

The rules clearly say the combatant receives a penalty of -1 per 10% of Maximum activity.  Thus, out of 20 time segments, someone who uses their full movement for that phase is only penalized for half of the total time, even tho they have clearly used up all of the time allotted.

Only if it were 20 segments, which I doubt.

It seems to me that somewhere in the course of  game development the rules for the initiative roll changed from 1d10 to 2d10.

Possible but unlikely, if this 20 time segments theory is the only indication.

Finally, the Question is, should the rule modify the initiative by -2/10% Maximum action?  I think this is clearly indicated, but again, some disagree..

I suggest to leave it be as written in the rules. OTOH, if you are certain that your theories are correct, just change the rules as you suggested. It certainly won't affect the game too much and thus don't hurt. And if you think it is the right way, just do it.


Something else, since you opened a "Special Request" thread with a request for other forum members:
Most people here prefer to have meaningful thread titles and titles which tell the topic of the question. So my request to you is to also use meaningful titles. Since often questions here in the forums ask for an official ruling, a title "Rules clarification about determining initiative" or something similar would have fulfilled these criteria much better. Thanks

[goron]

I would like to add some more Questions to the "Official Rulling" request

Question #3
Is the movemnt modifier per phase or per round, and as a result thereof the initiative
the same for all phases or can it differ in each phase?

Question #4
There are modifier to the initative which only apply to the  initiative between two combatants,
(weapon length, but also crits like "you gain initiative" or "you lose initiative") this can lead to
to the problem that youn can't resolve the circular problem. See Melee vs Missile initiative
But you need global initative to resolve the actions as modifier from hits/crits may influence the
following actions. How should these modifier be handled?

Question #5
Does the movement allowed in "react and melee" cause any initiative modifier and if which?

Question #6
Does the initiative modifier change if actions are canceled?

[DangerMan]

Havent seen that blue ink in here for a looong while..

[Marc R]

OK, this seems to have gotten a bit complex, what is the actual question looking for a ruling, as this seems more like 20 interconnecting questions/comments, some of which appear IMO correct, and others which appear to be misinterpretations. If you could cull it down to a shorter, clearer question it will be answered.

Picking out bits and pieces here.

The phase limits in RMFRP are for movement, so you could 100% attack in snap. . .

The % used per phase is the % referred to, so if you take a penalty based on it, it's 20% = 20% period, not that 20% is 100% of snap and thus 100%.

Initiative in RM was originally Qu bonus. . .and no randomness at all, quicker went faster unless there was a situation penalty or bonus. The 2d10 was added later to allow randomness to take part while maintaining scale. . .i.e. 2d10 vs bonus allowed random and innate speed to play large parts, while 1d10 made Qu too heavily weighted and the die roll a minor effect, and 1d100 made the randomness overwhelm the Qu bonus.

[mightypawn]

MarkR....

Somehow I still think I'm asking about an orange, and you're trying to show me a refrigerator!

[Ecthelion]

Somehow I still think I'm asking about an orange, and you're trying to show me a refrigerator!

Any why is this the case? He does answer your questions. The only problem for you seems to be that he is not following your course and instead confirms the official rulings from the books. So you asked for an official ruling and you got one. Now live with it or use a house rule for your group.

[mightypawn]

Thanks to all for your input....

I am glad to have a place to post my questions...  even if I am incapable of expressing them. 

Teleporting sword slingers....  LOL...  I bet there's a way to make good money putting this on T-shirts and bumper-stickers!

[mightypawn]

And...

Special Thanks to Providence... he seems to be the only one who understood....

[markc]

mightypawn;
 Maybe you can send a PM to Providence13 and see if you can get some better wording for your question to submit to the Official Rules Guy's. Most people are very willing to help out anyone and everyone on the forums.


MDC

[Marc R]

I suspected I was not quite following, hence my comment. . .but if your question is not answered in whole or part by my three comments above, could you ask again, and I'll take another stab at it?

[RandalThor]

I suspected I was not quite following, hence my comment. . .but if your question is not answered in whole or part by my three comments above, could you ask again, and I'll take another stab at it?

I don't think that the problem is with what you say in your answer - but that your answer isn't "official." He doesn't exactly care about how we house-rule it, he wants to know the official ICE ruling.

[Marc R]

Well, these the first two tidbits are the RAW, not my personal opinions, though perhaps the 3rd one contains a bit of editorial comment as to why the 2d10 for init.

I'm not sure an errata is called for here, unless there's a specific instance in the text that refutes the RAW per below.

The phase limits in RMFRP are for movement, so you could 100% attack in snap. . .

The % used per phase is the % referred to, so if you take a penalty based on it, it's 20% = 20% period, not that 20% is 100% of snap and thus 100%.

Initiative in RM was originally Qu bonus. . .and no randomness at all, quicker went faster unless there was a situation penalty or bonus. The 2d10 was added later to allow randomness to take part while maintaining scale. . .i.e. 2d10 vs bonus allowed random and innate speed to play large parts, while 1d10 made Qu too heavily weighted and the die roll a minor effect, and 1d100 made the randomness overwhelm the Qu bonus.

[mightypawn]

I'll try it this way guys.....  One more try...

here's the segments of rules...

RMFRP pg. 40

INITIATIVE DETERMINATION PHASE
...
Declared Movement ................... -1 per 10% of maximum
movement activity (based on declared pace)

RMFRP PG 41

SNAP ACTION PHASE
.....
• 20% is the maximum activity for a movement action.


Here, for the Snap action phase is a Defiinition for Maximum activity... there are similar definitions for Normal and Deliberate phases.

The modifier for initiative is based on the term "Maximum Activity", specifically a percentage thereof.

The term Maximum Activity defined as a separate number (20% of total for snap action)


So here it is,  THE BIG QUESTION:


Why is it then, as you guys say was the official ruling, that the initiative penalty is uniform?

 For example, if someone can move 20' in a given Snap Action Phase, and moves that 20 feet, you all say, -2 to initiative. 

ok then, what if he moved 10'?  5'? 15'?
 

The % used per phase is the % referred to, so if you take a penalty based on it, it's 20% = 20% period, not that 20% is 100% of snap and thus 100%.

If the percentage is simply the "Phase Percent", then does the character receive the same -2 to initiative in all cases?  Regardless if it's a move of 1' or 20'?

It just occurs to me that since the rule states "-1 per 10% of maximum
movement activity"  that it is asking us to calculate the percentage based on the definition of what the maximum activity is for the phase in question.

If that is not the case, If I am simply missing something, I'd love to know where to find the clarifying rule.