Topic: Target awareness spells with no visible effects?

[djmarvanek]

I am interested in people thoughts on whether the target of a spell that has no visible effects is aware of the attempt in the case is it resisted. e.g. Sleep V, e.g. Question I, e.g. Charm Kind, etc

Also in the case the the target does not resist. Is the target aware ,after the duration expires, that they under the effect. e.g. Charm Kind?

[Usdrothek]

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10700.msg135717#msg135717

See this one.

[yammahoper]

I think all these spells have some visible effect, some very subtle, like a gleam in the casters eyes for charm or a brief glitter effect in the air for sleep. 

[providence13]

Along these lines, last night someone tried to Dispel Essence on our Fly III Mage. His spell resisted, so nothing happened.
The Player started to buck, "Awe come on! I would know when someone was attacking my spells..."
IMO, This was not character knowledge. Maybe you get a bad feeling, like you left the kettle on, or you forgot your seat belt while driving, but you don't know anything about what happened or who did it.

I (leniently) told him he could attempt a Power Awareness (1 full minute, hanging in mid air or 1 full round at -100). He chose to drop it.
For me, not all spells have flashy effects.

[yammahoper]

But an attempt to unravel the weave of an active spell in use should indeed be known as soon as the dispell contacts the fly spell.  However, if the rr is not made bu 50+, I think it is fair for a GM to declare the attemp is only sensed.  A rr result of 50+ should allow the defender to detect the exact location of the caster.

Of course, this goes back to a long arguement about magic.  If spells are fire and forget then only the attack can be detected.  Likewise the attacker would only know if the attck was successful by visual clues (allowing a quick think mage skilled in flying to "fall" and play possum).

[providence13]

Does it matter if the caster is the target of the spell?
Or are you saying that if I cast Light I and then Longdoor, leave the area, take a train to the next town....
and then some one somehow dispells/or even tries to drop my spell while it is still on, I might detect feel it?

If this is the case, then magic is a much more sensitive issue than I imagined.

[yammahoper]

Yes, I am.  When Obi Wan felt the disturbance in the force following the destruction of Aldanon, he felt it a few million miles away.

However, regarding an active spell such as light, I believe the rule for a caster canceling his own action is concentration and being within range.  By that I assume the initial range of the spell (so a 1mile per level long ear could be canceled even if the active spell is X miles away).  So it seems resobable that a casters contact with a spell ends when he is "out of range."

Duration imo is a measure of how long a caster can maintain a weave and is independant of the issue at hand.

[markc]

  In the RAW I do not see any of the two ways talked about above being stated, IE fire and forget and attached to caster.


 What has been stated before IIRC is that if you succeed the RR by 50 then you know that someone tried to dispel the spell.
 Also if someone had Power Perception up at the time of the dispel then I would allow a maneuver roll to see if they saw the magic being gathered and cast.


MDC

[providence13]

'Concentration to cancel a spell, if still w/in range' is a good argument for magic sensitivity.

With that in mind, I'll use the RR over 50 method, tempered with the concentration rule.

[Athelstaine]

We always treated a secret GM roll for player's resist. If he fails well the point would be moot then. But if he resisted he would know something funny happened.

[providence13]

It's an age old argument, Athelstaine. "Can this player keep player knowledge separate from character knowledge?"
If they can play the role of someone who doesn't know, then you have a mature player. Sometimes, our greedy Mage gets the better of himself. "Since someone cast a spell on me, that tells me that they are a caster and since I have a few magic items, then they will too. If I kill them, then I will get their stuff"... etc.

But the person playing the Ranger will actually stop me and say "Oh, no, I couldn't have done that crit last round because I had already done xyz, so that orc is still alive.." He is a less experienced, but more mature role player.

If spells have visible effects in your game, then this is can be even more important.

[Marc R]

Casters do retain connection to their spells, in the sense that the caster, and no other, can end a duration spell before the end of it's duration via one round of concentration. (P84 of RMC spell law, similar note in RMSS)

The caster has to be within the radius of original casting, or within sensing range of the spell's current effects.

That places a rule context stating that at least spells with durations are still connected to the caster in some manner.

There is no rule anywhere saying that connection tells the caster anything, though as GM I'd likely allow a caster to "Check" a duration spell with no overt effects by concentration, then NOT cancelling it. (Is my ward on that door still active? I walk 10 from the door and concentrate a moment, yes it's still there, or no it's not).

I dunno that you'd sense a failed dispel on your fly, any more than you'd notice any other such spell being cast on a target other than you specifically. . .it's a tricky call though, as the fly spell is on the caster, so in some sense they are the target. . .GM call I'd say, as the rules are not firmly either direction.

Spells with a duration of "-" would seem to be the fire-and-forget kind.

Insofar as I am aware, spells are not as subtle as all that, unless specifically stated. . .and can be used in context. . .

i.e. if I ignite the table in front of you, it's magic, if I ignite the wall next to the fireplace while nobody is paying attention, likely people will assume that the fireplace started the fire.

I sleep 5 guards late at night when they are drowsy and half asleep, sneak past, and move on, they might assume they fell asleep normally. . .I sleep 5 alert guards who are in the middle of a conversation then likely they'll know they were magically effected as they literally drop mid sentence from their feet to the ground.

Charm doesn't delete memories, and unless you use it on a good friend, I'd assume the sensation of thinking someone is a good friend will feel very wrong afterward in context of your memories. . . might slip past if the target is drunk and very friendly, but in almost any other context I'd think the "I met this stranger and he was my bestest friend" would seem quite wrong in retrospect.

[GrumpyOldFart]

On a rather tangential note, I did have a house rule back in the day that the Strike spell, being a tactile illusion with no visual component, did not break Invisibility. To be sure, that was no guarantee that your casting style wouldn't break it (broad gestures, dancing, etc.) but the spell itself does not.

And for any form of "magical forensics" to determine the direction of the caster rather than the direction of the strike itself is a problem of a completely different order of magnitude.

[Old Man]

On a further tangential note: I run my world as a "Doc Strange World of Magic" where like the comic books, all spells have lots of light, energy and sound. The "volume" varies based on the spell type (Force and Elemental obvious as you would expect). Spell effects (Shields, Blurs) visible unless not (disguises etc.). So Players have to give some thought to when they say, "I start to cast ... "

Ciao,
Old Man

[Marc R]

IIRC that is the default shadow world magic situation, where magic is generally visible and/or audible in most situations.

[providence13]

If I may ask, do flashy effects preclude any form of Spell Trickery?
Can you hide or dampen the casting?

[yammahoper]

I have and so allow skills to hide casting.  The skill rank bonus acts as a penalty to attempted perception chacks against detection, by skill or spell.  If the detect is a spell, the penalty may cause the BAR to modify fumble, which results in a fumble role on the misinformation column in spell law.  I'm sure I have the name wrong: the fumble table for fumbled "I" spells.

[Marc R]

Trickery, or subdued gestures fall under a lot of different sub rules, some of which go in different directions, or contradict. . .which variation of spell trickery/subterfuge do you mean? (Which version, and often, which book?)

[Old Man]

If I may ask, do flashy effects preclude any form of Spell Trickery?
Can you hide or dampen the casting?

In my game Spell Trickery can hide the "Anan Nathrac ... " casting gestures and what not. The further effects once the casting completes can not be hidden.

[yammahoper]

There have been times that a player lacks the correct skill to hide spell effects.  I have allowed the BAR bonus to be used to hide effects.  Obviously it is much less effective than a skill.