Topic: Game mechanics and in-game language

[DangerMan]

Any thoughts on this? I'll explain:

Say I want to get a decent weapon at the market. I know I can only afford a +5 non magic. Woulf I go to the market and declare: "Hello. Could I get a + 5 hand axe here?" Gets weird.. Some says this breaks the mood of the game. However, we (at least us Norwegians) aint got the language to work around this..

Another example could be a spells that reveals the level of an NPC. "Holy smokes! That dude is level 23! And Im only level 7. What level are you again, my firend?" Doesnt sound right..

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

For the hand axe, you are basically looking for a "high quality hand axe", or a "magical hand axe", how high of a quality and/or how magical is subjective to the characters, though numerically precise to the player/GM.

For that spell example, basically, what the caster would "see" is that the NPC is more than 3 times as powerful/skills/experienced as the caster. The spell gives the player the exact information, but the character would view it in terms of experience and/or skill.

[yammahoper]

In our real world certain markets became famouse for high quality steel, or gold, or textiles, etc.  A game world can easily copy this.

When roleplaying the sale, the merchant will offer items according to the PC's request and possibly station. 

PC: My good merchant, I require a high steel sword, a weapon of fine quality.

Merchant: Ah yes, I believe I have what you seek right here...a fine blade made in the smithing halls of Eidolon, a common blade, but very fine.

PC: hmm, any dwarven steel?

M: Pah, such fine wres are not for such as you.  I reserve those blades only for nobility and you are far beneath their station...unless, you have say, 600gp...

PC: fine, I'll take the eidolon blade...say...3gp?

M: 3gp!!?  I would never take less than 5go for such a well made and well traveled blade?  Do you hate chidren?!!  Why do you wish to starve mone!!?

Etc.

The next question is how does the PC KNOW its a +5 superior blade and not a pretty knock off?  My brother likes to use the OB of PC's as skill in identifying the quality of a specific weapon type, which assumes if the PC trains in maces, he will learn through experience what a good mace feels and looks like.  It is a friendly way and doesn't give the ability to value other weapons or goods.  This approach also works well with craft skills.  The other approach is Evaluate Skills, which can be as specific or generic as you prefer.

BTW, it really pays to rip off the PC's from time to time, particularly when they are low level.  Out right snookery should occur AND sell them a stolen something, whose owners come for it.  Even a lawful group will face stiff fines from local magistrates.  This is just one wsay to keep a party cash strapped and driven.  A fence who can magically disguise goods may even work for a nefarious group and work as a plot device to get adventures on a certain trail.  Herbs are easy to fake and so much fun when the players discover they are counterfit.

[DangerMan]

For the hand axe, you are basically looking for a "high quality hand axe", or a "magical hand axe", how high of a quality and/or how magical is subjective to the characters, though numerically precise to the player/GM.

Ok, but if I've got three of them axes? Then this one is superior, that one over there is even more superior, and the one stuck in the dead guys head is uber-superior? Something like that?

For that spell example, basically, what the caster would "see" is that the NPC is more than 3 times as powerful/skills/experienced as the caster. The spell gives the player the exact information, but the character would view it in terms of experience and/or skill.

What if the PCs want to have a conversation based on what the spell revealed. PC1: "He's three times as poweful as me". PC2: "Okay, but how poweful are you?"

How about healing herbs? This one heals 10 hit points. This one 20. How would that go?

(I really dont wanna come of as Im trolling here)

I guess what you are saying is PCs would have less precise info? We should probaly just wing it on this one, but discussion broke out last night.

[Cormac Doyle]

Using comparative terms for skill capability could be as follows:

With respect to most crafts/skills - Apprenticeship -> Assistant or Journeyman -> Craftsman (Settled, runs own "shop") -> Master Craftsman -> Epic/Legendary/etc Craftsman

Unskilled - 0 ranks
Apprentice Crafter/Archer/Duelist/Magician- 1-4 ranks
Journeyman Crafter(Novice Archer/Duelist/Magician) - 5-10 ranks
Craftsman/Archer/Duelist/Magician - 11-20 ranks
Master Craftsman/Archer/Duelist/Magician - 21-30 ranks
Epic Craftsman/Craftsman/Archer/Duelist/Magician - 31-40 ranks
etc ...

For level equivalents -
"normal" rank progression = 1 per level
"accelerated" rank progression = 2 per level
So someone who specializes in a skill or craft will develop at 2xlevel; otherwise, 1xlevel or slower ...

A spell reveals that PC1 is level 19 ... so they become "an Epic Duelist"

[GrumpyOldFart]

One of the advantages I've enjoyed by basing my world on Earth is having the internet to go to on any given subject, such as resources.

Thus, what the books call "dwarven steel", I look up on the internet as high speed tool steel. The reason it's "the superior steel the dwarfs make" is because the dwarves are the ones sitting on the resources to make that particular alloy, in this case chromium I think. And they're the ones who know the tempering process, mainly because they're the ones who can make steel that requires it.

The culture of the humans just east of them is changed in subtle and gross ways by the fact that they can make all the brass they want, but have to trade with the dwarves for the tin to make bronze. There is a certain amount of pretty constant "international strife" over the fact that the humans, not the dwarves, are sitting on the only really good source of metallurgical coal. It gives them a powerful bargaining chip, but there's a certain "that should be ours" attitude in every dwarf that can't completely be shaken off, which makes for rough negotiations.

For trying to put magical bonuses into "common speech", adjectives are your friends. The obvious and easy way to divide it is the way RM chose pretty much from the beginning, eg Minor, Lesser, Greater, Major, that kind of thing. However, you mustn't let your players ever forget that a swordsman unfamiliar with the jargon of the Alchemist is in the same position grandma is in when she talks to the computer technician.

 

I guess what you are saying is PCs would have less precise info?

The breadth and depth of information the PCs have is rarely going to be the same as what the players have, that's for certain.

If I'm playing a plasma physicist that just accidentally created the basis for true machine AI, there isn't any way for the GM to accurately communicate to me what my character has learned and experienced. Even if the GM is an actual plasma physicist himself, I am not, I'm grandma talking to the computer tech.

Once you add magic into the game mechanics, we're all grandma talking to the computer tech, up to and including the GM. Given all that, how the alchemist at the local magic shop describes _____ to the mage, much less to the fighter, is going to be a loose approximation at best, no?

[Setorn]

In my games I award exp for transcending Game Speak with Setting Speak. 

The quality of Herbs, Weapons and other good would be a function of skills used to evaluated the item: Trading, Weapon Lore, Crafting Skills. While the GM may say +5 for clarity and brevity during some play, he ought to when time and circumstances dictate.

For spells that reveal game terms (Level, Profession, Hits) to players, the character receives feelings, impression of those abilities and terms. 

For professions and the like most spell casters in my game are called mages, wizards, et. al.   

Profession names are used out of Character by players.  In character any profession name could be used.

[yammahoper]

In my game magic is defined within the guilds by circles.  1st circle (1st-5th level spells), 2nd circle (6th-10th level spells), etc. 

This provides a point of reference for detect spells and power perception.  The colors of magic can vary in shades and intensity when viewed or described by the GM. 

I like to have a constant running conflict between most Chennelers, Mentalist and Essence users, as each school thinks very little of the others.  So while an informed merchant can swear the enchanted arrows are produced by masters of the 5th circle in The HGall of Elements, a druid or cleric would find such definitions silly and a sign of ignorance (in general...there are always exceptions).

IMO this intereaction is a great opportunity to add flavor and context to the world.  If you wanted to buy a high end camera tomorrow, not just an off the shelf $75-300 digital but a $4999 digital, the sales man would slam with lots of technical info:shutter speeds, number of pictures a minute, various resolutions, zoom, etc.   The same can be done with enchanted weapons and armors, but talk will center on how easily the armor turns a goblins arrow, or deflects a blade, or absorbs a mace blow, how the edge never dulls or nicks, etc.  If you have shops, then room would be made for sparring and displaying an items ability ("Go ahead and cleave the chain...SEE!  This dagger will easily puncture the stoutest chain...).  I tend to not have stores with items on the shelf beyond a few mundane weapons.  Inventory requires use of stock and items sitting on a shelf do not generate income, so most craftsmen will be reluctant to make anything they do not have already sold.  Thus any item "on the shelf" is probably an apprentice practice peice and its quality will vary greatly.

Haggle.  Haggle but quit before it loses its charm or becomes a bore.

[markc]

For stuff; (based on the RMSS TC but can be used for RMC(2) stuff also)
 1) What is it made of? ie material, metal, etc. (this is the metal bonus from the book)
 2) Crafted in a specific style? (this is the advanced design portion)
 3) Detect Magic or Identify the magical quality? (see spell list etc)
 4) Design, looks, fine material used in the crafting besides its function.
 5) History.
 6) What shape the item is in now?
 7) Market forces


 All of the above IMHO affect the price of the item or value. #1,4 and 6 are generally easy to pick up if you have some knowledge the others can take some time and effort to define.


 As to the Q on power or level vs level.
 The caster should cast some spells before then go out to do what they are going to do. ie cast the spell on willing party members and gain info. That way when they cast the spell on an unknown they have some data to compare it to. (Lust like in science collect info standardize it, then compare unknowns to your knowns.)


Does that help?
MDC

[yammahoper]

Addendum.

The market in a world with magic would adjust to accomodate its presence.

Assuming Power perception is an allowed skill, there would be people who would masterthis difficult skill and sell their services.  Classification of herbs and magic items would become common knowledge among wealthy/educated masses.  The upwardly mobile commoner would probably provide the skill/craftsmanship however.  Nobles have better things to do and what else are loyal vassels good for if not the rendering of needed services?

The availability of magic will determine how available such services are.  If it is a high magic setting with universities and alchemist guilds and even magically lit streets, low level spell users seeking cash will be a dime a dozen.  Adventures entering a city may be examined or searched by such wizzards (plauge stones can kill a city).  An item that is percieved as overwhelmingly powerful is sure to be brought to the attention of authorities and at least watched.  The owner may be approached by officials to delve his intent or if he is willing to sell, perhaps even hoodwink an unaware PC to sell the item on the cheap.  Claims of theft or that the item is a lost heirloom of so and so can lead to much intrigue, with friendly govt's offer compensation and shiftless types sending assassins or thugs to collect.  There are many good reasons the freelance powerful seek to stay secret.

In our world, you cannot drive down the road in a $250,000 sports car and not get noticed.  The same applies in a fantasy setting, be it an enchanted steed or a super staff of power.  Additionally, if your game uses any sort of sense reality warp, use of powerful items is likely to attract attention even if the device is subtle.  Castles and Kings would use wards and the skilled to defend their homes and kingdoms to be sure.  With this in mind, the sale of magical items is likely to be closely supervised, even regulated.  Looking back in our own history you will find many rules and laws regarding production of goods and the taxes that go with them.

Taxes: the way to add a little more pain to the purse.  Any luxery item in a high magic world will probably run a 20% or HIGHER tax.  Yes, the wand of shock bolt is only 12gp, but dont forget the additional 30sp tax.  Watch your players grunt in disgust.

Also remember, if a crook is selling bogus items on the market BUT pays his taxes, he will probably have the protection of local officials, especially if he is providing kick backs to the right people, which will make any claims by party members quite likely to be ranked up there with stupid foriegners, and ya just KNOW how those people are.  Be sure your players are smart enough to understand the extreme danger they are in if the insist on fighting such systems without first proving their worth to some official somewhere.  Provincials just love to see foriegn criminal scum hang.

Economics provides the grease for so much roleplaying and plot elements, and magic items only enhances this. 

In a low power setting, it is likely the PC's will be the experts and local authorities will have to turn to them for information.  In such settings, it is likely high powered PC's will be feared and distruted far more than embraced and welcomed.  As always, exceptions are the norm, but the more provincial the local, the lower the education and the more fear based the politics and religion.  Strange has no love.

[Vector Z]

Ok, but if I've got three of them axes? Then this one is superior, that one over there is even more superior, and the one stuck in the dead guys head is uber-superior? Something like that?

Personally, I would never give a non-magic item more than a +5 bonus. So your 3 "high quality axes" would all be +5 and that's it.

But with magic bonuses, you could have a code/class system specific to your gameworld that basically says +5, +10, etc, in a more fantasy-like way.

For example you could have Topaz, Ruby, Jade, Amethyst, and Diamond class enchantments which equate to +5, +10, +15, +20, and +25 magic bonuses, respectively. Then hawkers can advertise a +10 sword as a Ruby-class enchanted weapon, and players will know what that means without it killing the mood.

You could use monsters for classification as well. Maybe with "Dragon-grade" or w/e being +25. You can just make up names for each level, or if your setting isn't too Tolkien-esque you could just give them letter ranks: E, D, C, B, A = 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. With, of course, the awe-inspiring S-Rank items that go beyond +25, that mere mortals usually never see

[GrumpyOldFart]

This doesn't transfer to describing magic items, but you could do as I've done with the undead around Medicine Wheel, and call them by a designation that refers to something obscure about their antecedents, suitably misunderstood by those seeing them now. Thus while the book may list them as zombies, skeletons, spectres, ghosts or liches, my party members are referring to them as One of Ours, Wastelanders, Lost Boys, Ghost Chickens and Greys. The names don't match up, either. One of Ours could be nearly anything except a lich or vampire, Ghost Chickens tend to be vampires or liches, Greys are usually ghosts or spectres.

[Arioch]

At our table, usually a player state "out of game" what a character wants, then we play out a scene translating it in in-game terms.
For example:
Player: "I'd like a +10 axe for my fighter"
GM: "Ok, this town is quite big so I think you could just check out a few smiths to see if you find it. Let's play it out"
Player: "Well met, my good friend, I've heard that you're the best smith in town and I was looking for a very fine axe..."
etc...

OTOH If a PC find something the GM usually first tells the players what it is in "in game" terms, the translate it into mechanics (For example: "you find a high quality sword in that chest, made of the finest dwarven steel and covered with runes. - it's a magical +10 longsword")

For levels, we do basically the same, but actually few PCs ever bothered to cast this kind of spells so the problem rarely came up

[mightypawn]

Realizing that this thread is a bit old now, it came to mind as I was going over Alchemy spell lists.

Since Alchemy spell lists have something of a predictable order (Weapon I, Weapon II, etc) then a system of Identifying magical Items is basically pre-established.  "I need a class II Broadsword please!"

Simple, easy, and already part of the system.

[Ynglaur]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

[providence13]

That's a good one.