Topic: Quick question about shields

[Rigby]

One of my players is saying he found something in the rules that said he could wear a target shield (getting the DB bonus) and still fire a bow, but he can't remember where he found it. I have been looking and have not been able to find it anything like that. Anyone else seen this, and if so can you point me in the right direction?

[markc]

  I cannot remember where it says that. But it may be an old MERP rule and not a RM rule.

  Even if he does wear it IMHO he would not be able to get the shields DB bonus as IMHO he has to use it actively. Other wise you could strap a shield on your back and get the DB.
 MDC

[yammahoper]

I recall some older rules in RM2 about wearing target shields on the fore arms to be used with two handed weapons in melee and gaining the bonus for DB (it was +10 I believe).  I do not recall it being used on missile, and I have a hard time seeing the logic, but I guess it could.

[Ecthelion]

One of my players is saying he found something in the rules that said he could wear a target shield (getting the DB bonus) and still fire a bow, but he can't remember where he found it. I have been looking and have not been able to find it anything like that. Anyone else seen this, and if so can you point me in the right direction?

I know the MERP and the RMSS/RMFRP rules quite well and can say that such a rule appears in neither of these books. It might be an optional rule from one of the RM2 companions, but until the player can point you to the page where he found it, I'd suggest you don't allow this for his PC.

[Mercenary30]

I know the rules quite well, and I don't remember anything about a target shield being used any different than any other shield. 

Now I do remember there being optional rules about a buckler........

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I feel that the issue here isn't whether it can be done but rather what the penalty is should it be attempted.

There is a fine line between the definition of bucklers and bracers. My understanding is that a buckler is simply a very small shield which is held in the hand, whilst a bracer is just as effective but is strapped to the forearm.

If the rules allow for a Buckler to be used with a bow, but don't require a hand to hold it, then it effectively becomes a bracer..

[markc]

What is that thing called that goes on the forearm to protect it from the string?
MDC

[yammahoper]

What is that thing called that goes on the forearm to protect it from the string?
MDC

Wrist guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_wrist-guard

[markc]

From wikipedia; see first blue word.


It was originally thought that these stone wrist-guards were bracers, used by archers to protect their bow arms from the string of the bow. However, recent research has highlighted that (in Britain at least) they do not commonly occur in graves in association with arrowheads (the Amesbury Archer being a notable exception) and nor are they commonly found on the part of the arm that would need protection from the bow string (on a right-handed archer, the inside left wrist).[2][3] They are usually found on the outside of the arm where they would have been more conspicuous. Many have only two holes which would make them difficult to fasten securely to the arm, and some have projecting rivets which would catch on the bow string and make them unsuitable for use as a bracer.

After looking at the picture of the bracer I do not see how it could offer much protection besides to protect from the string of a bow.
MDC

[providence13]

Are you kidding? This is RM; players can do anything...
Just remember that wearing armor on the arms will give a missile attack penalty.
What the target shield penalty amounts to is up to you, of course. For me, the penalty to OB would be at least as much as the bonus to DB. Maybe x2.

The target shield is assumed to be able to move and get in the way of an attack. It's hard to do this and fire a bow at the same time, I imagine.
Can a Fighter wear one of these things on their hands and still use a sword...? Probably not. But I don't melee in my spare time. Maybe this idea is from a plethora of high fantasy art work.

[yammahoper]

From wikipedia; see first blue word.


It was originally thought that these stone wrist-guards were bracers, used by archers to protect their bow arms from the string of the bow. However, recent research has highlighted that (in Britain at least) they do not commonly occur in graves in association with arrowheads (the Amesbury Archer being a notable exception) and nor are they commonly found on the part of the arm that would need protection from the bow string (on a right-handed archer, the inside left wrist).[2][3] They are usually found on the outside of the arm where they would have been more conspicuous. Many have only two holes which would make them difficult to fasten securely to the arm, and some have projecting rivets which would catch on the bow string and make them unsuitable for use as a bracer.

After looking at the picture of the bracer I do not see how it could offer much protection besides to protect from the string of a bow.
MDC

If ya ever fire a bow, wear one.  That string stings like mad when it strikes the soft skin of the inner fore arm.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Therein lies the confusion 

My definition of "Bracers" is that of additional armour strapped on the forearm to protect the arm... i.e. Vambraces. Much in the same manner as a thick sleeve, albeit made of sterner stuff usually Hardened Leather or Plate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vambrace

Given that these are generally can be purchased as add-ons, as opposed to an integral part of a suit they could in theory be worn by anyone regardless of AT. If my memory serves me right, these provide NO db bonuses but do negate certain criticals and already penalise missile use. If you fire a bow with any great regularity you will understand the problems associated with wearing baggy/bulky clothing on the arms which is why they do penalise the user.

So, in theory these could also be used to actively parry weapons with (in the same manner as a shield) , at least better than someone with no armour, no shield and without a melee weapon to hand.

Taking this a stage further, any other shield-like device should carry at least the penalties that these already do as a static penalty if worn on the arm. In addition, because the RM round is a fairly lengthy affair, it may be possible to shift to a shield in the same round. If this is done then the penalty to missile fire can be determined by the activity used to change from bow to shield.

So generally I'd say that even Bucklers would seriously hamper the archer... but could be used with a large penalty to the missile attack. As others have mentioned, it's generally best just to dodge.

[Zat]

I seem to remember some system or other (AD&D maybe?) allowing a 'Buckler' shield to be worn and still give defensive bonuses when the user was weilding a 2-handed weapon. Could this be the confusion?

[Kristen Mork]

D&D 3.5 allows a buckler to be worn while using a two-handed weapon (however, you suffer a penalty to attacks while doing so).

I am not aware of any rule in RM that allows a two-handed weapon to be used with a buckler (is there a buckler?) or target shield.  If there's such a rule, it would probably be Arms Companion (or RoCoV, which IIRC included new equipment).

[rdanhenry]

D&D has always been an extremely poor source for learning about weapons and armor. Most errors in other RPGs can be traced back to relying on "knowledge" from *D&D rather than doing actual research. Although getting your information from fantasy artwork is even worse.

Small shields need to be actively employed to be effective. Even without all the problems involved in strapping a shield to your arm in a useful way that doesn't involve the hand, you'd still need to use the arm to position the shield (the more so with smaller shields) and could not effectively use a weapon in that hand at the same time.

[Draeck]

A lot of buckler and target shields were held and controlled by the hand, not strapped to the forearm. So those types are useless from an archery standpoint.
 Even those that can be strapped to a forearm have the issue of blocking some of the line of sight for targetting ( Make like your shooting a bow and have a friend hold a dinner plate or serving platter where the shield would be).
If used , there would definitely by some OB subtrations. For any game of mine, I am not going to allow it.
How about using the small shield with a crossbow. Probably should still be some subtractions, but once you drop the crossbow to melee, your shield is already in place.

[rdanhenry]

Shields for archers were of two types: held by someone else, or set up with a stand or spike in the ground as cover.

[Draeck]

Shields for archers were of two types: held by someone else, or set up with a stand or spike in the ground as cover.

I would consider the freestanding ones to be partial cover. Someone else holding a shield I would have to look more closely at, as whether to call it shield, cover or something else.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Historical use by archers of shields exists in Greek art.  Byzantine psiloi including archers seem to have had bucklers and 15th century English archers might have bucklers/target shields.

All of these were probably to assist the archers' hand to hand capability in some shape or form and therefore seem unlikely to have been worn on the arm while shooting.

Mediaeval crossbowmen might use small or large pavises.

Regards

Edward