Topic: TWC and Martial Arts

[Cory Magel]

I see where my mistake was (I should have said -15 from lack of skill, not -20 for using in both hands) and I also see where there might be some oddities in the rules...

If you use one weapon in your right hand, assuming it's dominant, you use at your normal skill level.
If you use that weapon in your left hand, assuming it's not dominant, you use it at -15 and have no bonus (because you have skill in the Catagory, but not the skill itself).
If you are ambidextrous you can use it in either hand just as well as the other, so you it at your normal single skill level.

If you are trying to use the same type of weapon in both hands, with no training and no ambidexterity you have a -15 total skill in your off hand and a -20 skill in both hands.  According to the rules you would also have a -30 overall skill due to not having the TWC skill.

So, Ambidexterity takes care of the -15 in your off hand and brings it up to your normal single skill.
But you still have an overall skill of -30 because you don't have TWC.
Where's the -20 really from now?  It seems like it's a carry over penalty that is not needed due to the other rules.

[Ecthelion]

Let me just ask a question.  What good does ambidexterity do if it does not allow you to do something in one hand just as well as the other?

Well, it removes the penalty for the off-hand that others get when using it.

[rdanhenry]

What? I couldn't follow that at all.

By RMSR, you get -15 for not training in the weapon in that hand. So, learn dagger in left hand, rapier in right hand. You are right-handed. Fight with the dagger in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty. Fight with the dagger in the right hand, fight with -15 for weapon skill bonus. Fight with the rapier in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty, weapon skill bonus is -15.

Now fight with both of them together. You now use TWC. Unless you actually have developed TWC, you have a skill bonus of -30 and only Profession and stat bonuses from category. The -20 does not apply, since it appears on p. 96 under the "One-Handed Weapons", but not under "Two One-handed Weapons". There is a -20 for switching hands with your two-weapon combination under the skill description (where it gets labeled "Two-Weapon Fighting", minor oops) on p. 162. So if you learn rapier in right, dagger in left TWC, and then for some reason fight with rapier in left, dagger in right, you do get to use your TWC skill, but at -20.

It is not specified that you must have your skill with a weapon in the same hand as the one in which you train it for TWC, so if you allow short sword/ short sword without training short sword (non-dominant hand), that is RAW, but so is requiring training the weapon in the appropriate hand. This is a small gap in the rules.

MAC may have introduced other rules, but except for the question of "Do I need to train dagger specifically for the left hand in order to have a dagger in my left hand for TWC, or is my right-handed dagger skill enough?", the RMSR version of TWC is rather clear. For RM2, I don't think it was consistent, and discussion would have to select a particular version of the skill.

As for multiple attacks with martial arts, that was included in RMSS only in the section for how to use Arms Law without Rolemaster, but if one wishes to allow it (leaving out these capabilities would be a good idea for any GM who believes martial artists are too powerful), the rules in section 5.9.3 of Arms Law cover it already.

[yammahoper]

What? I couldn't follow that at all.

By RMSR, you get -15 for not training in the weapon in that hand. So, learn dagger in left hand, rapier in right hand. You are right-handed. Fight with the dagger in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty. Fight with the dagger in the right hand, fight with -15 for weapon skill bonus. Fight with the rapier in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty, weapon skill bonus is -15.

Now fight with both of them together. You now use TWC. Unless you actually have developed TWC, you have a skill bonus of -30 and only Profession and stat bonuses from category. The -20 does not apply, since it appears on p. 96 under the "One-Handed Weapons", but not under "Two One-handed Weapons". There is a -20 for switching hands with your two-weapon combination under the skill description (where it gets labeled "Two-Weapon Fighting", minor oops) on p. 162. So if you learn rapier in right, dagger in left TWC, and then for some reason fight with rapier in left, dagger in right, you do get to use your TWC skill, but at -20.

It is not specified that you must have your skill with a weapon in the same hand as the one in which you train it for TWC, so if you allow short sword/ short sword without training short sword (non-dominant hand), that is RAW, but so is requiring training the weapon in the appropriate hand. This is a small gap in the rules.

MAC may have introduced other rules, but except for the question of "Do I need to train dagger specifically for the left hand in order to have a dagger in my left hand for TWC, or is my right-handed dagger skill enough?", the RMSR version of TWC is rather clear. For RM2, I don't think it was consistent, and discussion would have to select a particular version of the skill.

As for multiple attacks with martial arts, that was included in RMSS only in the section for how to use Arms Law without Rolemaster, but if one wishes to allow it (leaving out these capabilities would be a good idea for any GM who believes martial artists are too powerful), the rules in section 5.9.3 of Arms Law cover it already.

If you want to understand how simple the -20 for off hand rule is, spend the day using your off hand for everything: eating, drinking, typing, writing, whipeing your butt, etc. 

The -15 you mention is for no skill, not off hand.  They are seperate penalties.

OTOH, just do it your way and ignore RAW.

[Marc R]

Lets not get too surly, and there are quite a few things I prefer to do with my left hand. . .like typing the stuff on the left side of the keyboard.

That said, I don't recall anything addressing the fact that with martial arts strikes I could in a 10 second round punch you with my right (primary) fist, then kick you with my right (primary) foot. . .so ambidexterity or "Primary vs secondary" side doesn't necessarily need to be part of the equation for a two attack MA combo.

[rdanhenry]

What? I couldn't follow that at all.

By RMSR, you get -15 for not training in the weapon in that hand. So, learn dagger in left hand, rapier in right hand. You are right-handed. Fight with the dagger in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty. Fight with the dagger in the right hand, fight with -15 for weapon skill bonus. Fight with the rapier in the left hand, suffer a -20 "off-hand" penalty, weapon skill bonus is -15.

Now fight with both of them together. You now use TWC. Unless you actually have developed TWC, you have a skill bonus of -30 and only Profession and stat bonuses from category. The -20 does not apply, since it appears on p. 96 under the "One-Handed Weapons", but not under "Two One-handed Weapons". There is a -20 for switching hands with your two-weapon combination under the skill description (where it gets labeled "Two-Weapon Fighting", minor oops) on p. 162. So if you learn rapier in right, dagger in left TWC, and then for some reason fight with rapier in left, dagger in right, you do get to use your TWC skill, but at -20.

It is not specified that you must have your skill with a weapon in the same hand as the one in which you train it for TWC, so if you allow short sword/ short sword without training short sword (non-dominant hand), that is RAW, but so is requiring training the weapon in the appropriate hand. This is a small gap in the rules.

MAC may have introduced other rules, but except for the question of "Do I need to train dagger specifically for the left hand in order to have a dagger in my left hand for TWC, or is my right-handed dagger skill enough?", the RMSR version of TWC is rather clear. For RM2, I don't think it was consistent, and discussion would have to select a particular version of the skill.

As for multiple attacks with martial arts, that was included in RMSS only in the section for how to use Arms Law without Rolemaster, but if one wishes to allow it (leaving out these capabilities would be a good idea for any GM who believes martial artists are too powerful), the rules in section 5.9.3 of Arms Law cover it already.

If you want to understand how simple the -20 for off hand rule is, spend the day using your off hand for everything: eating, drinking, typing, writing, whipeing your butt, etc. 

The -15 you mention is for no skill, not off hand.  They are seperate penalties.

OTOH, just do it your way and ignore RAW.

You just repeated what I wrote, then acted like it was a correction. Having a bad day?

[yammahoper]

Fed up with obstinate positions. 
 
obstinate
Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action.


Although after trying to watch just a few minutes of the NFL pro bowl, I was completely disgusted.

[smug]

So, I just re-read RM2 and in that, below the bit about ambidexterity removing the -20 for off-hand weapon use, it does also say that you get all the skill ranks from one hand just transfer over to the other (which is what Corey does in his games; in RM2, that's also RAW). In RMC, there's a mention in Arms Law of the two-weapon fighting issue and separate skill development, but it refers to Chapter 7.0 of Character Law which contains no reference to it (that I could find, if only I could buy the .pdfs, eh?); in addition RMC apparently contains no mention of ambidexterity.

To my mind, RM2's ambidexterity is both too good and is unrealistic based on the ambidextrous person I know well and the few others I've met; I'm OK with the -20 going away -- that seems fine, to me -- but the skill rank transfer doesn't make sense, to me. At best, I think they should count as similar weapons. However, I also think that ambdexterity is better as a background option; the version I prefer would be 1 background point, I guess.

[Marc R]

Ayup, RMC AL chapter 2, page 19.

Chapter 7's reference merely states that learning the same weapon in different modes of use requires different skills. . .I'd love to claim that obviously means bastard sword 2HD vs 1HD, Dagger melee vs thrown, and left hand vs right. . .but it actually makes no specific mention of left vs right.

[yammahoper]

So, I just re-read RM2 and in that, below the bit about ambidexterity removing the -20 for off-hand weapon use, it does also say that you get all the skill ranks from one hand just transfer over to the other (which is what Corey does in his games; in RM2, that's also RAW). In RMC, there's a mention in Arms Law of the two-weapon fighting issue and separate skill development, but it refers to Chapter 7.0 of Character Law which contains no reference to it (that I could find, if only I could buy the .pdfs, eh?); in addition RMC apparently contains no mention of ambidexterity.

To my mind, RM2's ambidexterity is both too good and is unrealistic based on the ambidextrous person I know well and the few others I've met; I'm OK with the -20 going away -- that seems fine, to me -- but the skill rank transfer doesn't make sense, to me. At best, I think they should count as similar weapons. However, I also think that ambdexterity is better as a background option; the version I prefer would be 1 background point, I guess.

Back in my RM2 days, I would have allowed 1/2 ranks in the off hand for calculating skill.  So if the right hand ss is 22 ranks, the off hand is 11 ranks.  Then -20.

[smug]

So, I just re-read RM2 and in that, below the bit about ambidexterity removing the -20 for off-hand weapon use, it does also say that you get all the skill ranks from one hand just transfer over to the other (which is what Corey does in his games; in RM2, that's also RAW). In RMC, there's a mention in Arms Law of the two-weapon fighting issue and separate skill development, but it refers to Chapter 7.0 of Character Law which contains no reference to it (that I could find, if only I could buy the .pdfs, eh?); in addition RMC apparently contains no mention of ambidexterity.

To my mind, RM2's ambidexterity is both too good and is unrealistic based on the ambidextrous person I know well and the few others I've met; I'm OK with the -20 going away -- that seems fine, to me -- but the skill rank transfer doesn't make sense, to me. At best, I think they should count as similar weapons. However, I also think that ambdexterity is better as a background option; the version I prefer would be 1 background point, I guess.

Back in my RM2 days, I would have allowed 1/2 ranks in the off hand for calculating skill.  So if the right hand ss is 22 ranks, the off hand is 11 ranks.  Then -20.

That's basically the "half ranks" option for similar weapons, I think; I'd probably use the "half bonus" version (in general) but either seems to me to be better than the "full ranks for the ambidextrous" as per RAW.

[Marc R]

Unless you actually trained the off hand.

I prefer the "half bonus" when I use similarity, as it avoids the issue of "if I have 8 similar ranks, can I buy 1 actual rank for 9 ranks?"

[smug]

Unless you actually trained the off hand.

I prefer the "half bonus" when I use similarity, as it avoids the issue of "if I have 8 similar ranks, can I buy 1 actual rank for 9 ranks?"

As per RAW, you can (another reason I prefer half bonus).