Topic: Stats for Skills

[David Johansen]

So...on the stat front, what if I want to go to six stats per skill?

Wait, wait, put down the rope and hear me out.

RMSS stat bonuses are roughly 1/3 of the RM2 bonuses.  Now some people would like skills to be able to reflect two stats having equal impact without introducing a third.  Now, if we were to divide the bonuses by 2 we could do that quite easily.  Giving us stuff like this:

3 x (Ag + Qu)
2 x (Ag + Qu + In)

We could even restrict it to those two structures to avoid stuff like:

Ag + St + Qu + Re + In x 2

[Cory Magel]

People that criticize RM for it's complexity already would have a field day with that.
However, I agree completely that a new RM should go from three averages stats to three added stats, resulting in 3x the stat importance.

[pastaav]

Six stats per skill sound like it will even out the impact of stats. It is true that there can be more precision in determining what stats affect a skill, but it is also true that the player will have a harder time understanding the impact of each stat. What do the added detail give for benefits?

[David Johansen]

Mainly I was thinking it would split the two stats / three stats per skill without an additional chart or excessive math.

It's about the most elegant solution you'll ever get for the problem.  Personally I'm fine with three stats but some like one or two and it becomes a sticking point.

Working from a basis of six makes it easy to accomodate all three options without any remainders hanging around.

There could even be three charts for three preferences without generating any incompatibility in the range of results.

[rdanhenry]

Of course, you've already reduced the graininess of stat bonuses to +2 or +3 unless you allow the "base" bonuses to be fractional, which would just mess up the math again. I consider that a downside. Those who never used the option to smooth out stat bonus distribution in RM2 probably don't.

[yammahoper]

The ultimate simplification: ten stat mods are totaled, this is your base skill.  Ranks are bought and added to base skill.

Maybe not.  How about three stat mods per skill, player chooses with GM approval. The ultimate in flexibility. 

Hmm.  I actually kinda like that one.

Or keep the traditional three stats as mods.  If the RM2 stat mods are used/reverted to, we will have to average.  If the RMSS mods are maintained, we will have to add.

One question: is how skill stat mods work one of RM drawbacks to play/attracting new players/overly complex?  I don't think skill stat bonuses are broken, either in RM2 or RMSS.  That said...

...addition is generally seen as easier than division.

[David Johansen]

Of course, you've already reduced the graininess of stat bonuses to +2 or +3 unless you allow the "base" bonuses to be fractional, which would just mess up the math again. I consider that a downside. Those who never used the option to smooth out stat bonus distribution in RM2 probably don't.

+5 actually, 100 in RMSS gives a +10 which divided by 2 is +5.

The table would look something like this:

100    +5
95-99 +4
90-94 +3
80-89 +2
70-79 +1

Optional tables for one two and three stats could be published to allow for less graininess as the group desires.  One interesting facet of this idea is that it could be set up to allow the racial stat bonuses to be added to the stat instead of the bonus.  I'm agnostic on this as there are advantages to both approaches.

[Marc R]

Hmm if a stat goes -30 to +30, and is always averaged, then you go to three stats -10 to +10 that are added, you have not altered the scale at all, but have altered the graininess. .it is kind of true, in that if you back converted it to the average scale stat you get 0/3/6/9/12/15/18/21/24/27/30. you do still get graininess of end result, since you can still get any integer from -30 to +30 as a result of combining three.

Does make it harder to judge variations in direct stat I guess, and would make single stat skills or tasks less grainy overall. . .

Like there would be variations within the +4 or +3.

[rdanhenry]

Of course, you've already reduced the graininess of stat bonuses to +2 or +3 unless you allow the "base" bonuses to be fractional, which would just mess up the math again. I consider that a downside. Those who never used the option to smooth out stat bonus distribution in RM2 probably don't.

+5 actually, 100 in RMSS gives a +10 which divided by 2 is +5.

The table would look something like this:

100    +5
95-99 +4
90-94 +3
80-89 +2
70-79 +1

Optional tables for one two and three stats could be published to allow for less graininess as the group desires.  One interesting facet of this idea is that it could be set up to allow the racial stat bonuses to be added to the stat instead of the bonus.  I'm agnostic on this as there are advantages to both approaches.

You seem to have forgotten you were multiplying the bonuses by x2 or x3 depending on how many stats were chosen. +1 increments in stat bonuses mean +1 x 2 = +2 or +1 x 3 = +3 increments in actual skill modification.

[Marc R]

Essentially, RM2 to RMSS gives more graininess since 0 to 30 by 5s is only 7 levels vs the 11 levels of 0 to 10 by ones, unless you used smoothed RM2 stats by 1s, in which case the graininess went down from RM2 to RMSS.

[David Johansen]

Since RMSS is roughly 1/3 RM2 I just went roughly 1/2 RMSS to get 1/6.

Then you multiply by 2 for three or 3 for two stats.

[smug]

In RM2 I used the smoothed stats (I assume nearly everyone did) and I liked the optional three-stat average for skill bonuses. I appreciate it wasn't everyone's cup of tea, though.

My main axe to grind was Em. You can use Essence. And tame a horse.

[David Johansen]

Really, flip flopping the realm stats for Essence and Channelling would be a good idea.

[Marc R]

I think the inherent logic intended was that Essence casters have a "Feel" for their power source all around them, tapped into a field like a Jedi, while Channelers are connected to their power via a 6th "Other than normal" sense to something beyond and unconnected to their surroundings.

Which is as arbitrarily a good explanation as the reverse.

[pastaav]

Really, flip flopping the realm stats for Essence and Channelling would be a good idea.

Why not make that as an option?

[David Johansen]

Really you almost don't need to write it down.

[Moriarty]

I prefer single stats myself because the dead simplicity of it greatly outweighs the loss of detail, and it allows for more varied characters if you are able to focus on getting 3-4 truly high stats for your character and work with that, instead of the 'every stat should matter for everyone' approach that often is the result of multiple stats.
I might be persuaded by multiple stats if the rules were simpler, but the hassle of rolling (or buying) stats during character generation, temporary and potential stats, converting stat to bonus, adding race bonus, calculating added or averaged stat bonus for every skill, stat gain rolls at every level, then recalculating stat bonuses for skills, it is just too much.

The question I really wanted to read when I saw this topic wasn't 'what if we go to six stats?' but rather:
What are stats, and why do we need them?

[VladD]

As an answer: Stats represent natural talents that people are born with, and partly develop during adolescence, that steer their ultimate development later in live: ie a sports jock in highschool is probably physically endowed with endurence, strength, which is why he loves to run a round chasing balls and the president of the chess society is more likely to have above average Memory and reasoning scores, so his chess skill is higher and develops more quickly giving him an edge over the masses, probably sparking his interest in things like math, strategy and developing new IT devices.

Stats can be classified according to the following idea:

Physical stats: St, Qu, Co, Ag, SD
Mental capacity stats: Me, Re, Qu, SD
Creativity Stats: In, Ag, Em, Pr, SD
Social interaction stats Pr, Em, SD, Me

Any skill involving mostly physical activity: add physical stat bon. Have the values get back to what they were during RM2 (+1 at 70 to +25 at 100)
Skill dealing with mostly mental capacity: etc.

This way it would be less of a math exercise and more of a gut feeling. The stat groupings are talent indicators and on average most people would have like 75+ in their highest, 50+ and 25+ in their medium indicator and 0+ in their lowest indicator.

Mentalism: prime stat: Social interaction
Essence: Mental capacity
Channeling: Creativity

This would constitute something people can relate to, its easier and far removed from the standard 6-10 stats system in play everywhere.
Of course the stats division above is not fixed. It was more to illustrate how the "talent indicator" could replace a tangled mass of cross related stats...

Anyway it was something I am working on, trying to tackle the problem of making a new system, without losing too much charm of the old system (RM) and not copy too much as well.