Topic: A Setting Proposal

[Cory Magel]

I think you're going to find that you need an 'official' world base to start with (that would really need to be established by the publisher).  To many individual writers are going to have wildly different ideas about many, many things.  One persons "must have" fundamental will often directly oppose another.

For example... Elves on the decline.  Why?  What if on my continent elves are still at the height of their power?  Some of the ideas here are good, but they need to be part of that persons own little part of the world, not the 'world view'.

A collective effort will only work as an official setting if there's is strong control and oversight.  Lucas has kept a very strong hand in the Star Wars books even through they are written by various authors because this problem cropped up almost immediately.

[Cory Magel]

Where does the power for Channeling come from? From the gods. Where do the gods get there power? From themselves. That what makes them gods. The "powered-by-their-worshipers" trope is an RPG and modern fantasy cliche, but it is hardly generic. A race of gods, with innate powers far greater than those of mortals, is a far better fit for real mythologies and therefore deserves to be considered "generic" if anything does.

Ah, but this is just your opinion of where it comes from.  Maybe in my world it comes from the collective idea of something.  They are not compatible as a set-in-stone world rule.  You aren't giving a generic setting for me to add to... you are asking me to write within your world.

[David Johansen]

Where does the power for Channeling come from? From the gods. Where do the gods get there power? From themselves. That what makes them gods. The "powered-by-their-worshipers" trope is an RPG and modern fantasy cliche, but it is hardly generic. A race of gods, with innate powers far greater than those of mortals, is a far better fit for real mythologies and therefore deserves to be considered "generic" if anything does.

Exactly, on the other hand I did go with less broadly absolute gods and more local spheres of influence.

And yes, Cory, as I said from the start, ground rules and oversight are essential. We're talking about a COLLABORATIVE world building exercise.  You can have it your way any time you want by making your own world.

[Chris Seal]

The problem is to create a unified setting that is broad enough to allow creativity while still having a unique character that makes it interesting to read and gives the various areas some thematic consistancy.  Think of it in terms of a shared world anthology like Thieves World.

I was thinking that requiring a one megahex separation of creator controlled zones might overcome some issues.  But I really would like some collaborative things like warring kingdoms by different creators.

This is an interesting idea and could be a mini-game in itself. Give each author land grants as far from each other as possible and let them develop outwards until they come into conflict with others. Then have some editorial/community vote for who wins (or flip a coin).

Cheers
Chris

[David Johansen]

Or massive on line War Law games

[Athelstaine]

Where does the power for Channeling come from? From the gods. Where do the gods get there power? From themselves. That what makes them gods. The "powered-by-their-worshipers" trope is an RPG and modern fantasy cliche, but it is hardly generic. A race of gods, with innate powers far greater than those of mortals, is a far better fit for real mythologies and therefore deserves to be considered "generic" if anything does.

I would say that the channeling issue would be summed up from the info in the first couple of paragraphs by the original poster.

The universe is a perpeptual war between light and dark.  These overarching powers are occasionally personified in beings of light or darkness but are generally remote and inapproachable even for the gods.

So if there are beings that even the "Gods" can't fathom would be a great way to explain it. Perhaps these beings can tap this energy and parcel it out amongst the priests of the world, a la Dragon Kings from the Dark Sun setting.

On the other hand it could be a great adventure hook to have the players fiqure out.

Dragon Kings and Dark Sun are trademarks belonging to Wizards of the Coast. I hope i did not break any rules by mentioning those.

[Athelstaine]

Something i would like to see would be a Lizard Man culture based off of the Danish, Norse & Swedish viking cultures. They could raid and pillage their way to riches and lands and perhaps even trade with the afore mentioned Dwarf/Goblin trade cartel.

[yammahoper]

Why have elves at all?  Or dwarves?  Or hobbits.  Seriously, WHY???

Because dnd does it?  Or thats how Tolkien wrote it?  Rubbish.

Unless a world has a damn fine reason to have elves and dwarves and hobbits, then why bother with them at all?

In my world of Yem, Humans and Orgres were the dominant races, with the trolls the common enemy (remnants of the once ruling troll gawds who enslaved all).  No elves or dwarves or hobbits, though I did have arcane master fey gnomes.

In another setting were the dragons were lord of all, we had elves and orcs and drawves and humans and hobbits and all that because when the dragons cursed there slave race for rebelling, they were splintered by the magic and formed into monstrous races that could not stay united against the dragons.

All I'm saying is forget the syereotypical races and focus on the WHY of the who, wich will allow for a consistent setting with the races it needs, not just the races of tradition.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Lots of good ideas, lots of legitimate gripes. Earlier I used a world project I was doing as an example, not because I was trying to sell the idea or anything, but because it's the one I'm most familiar with and already contains a fair amount of these same lines of argument.

Overall - Is it a planet, that is, a sphere with an atmosphere and all that? Is it flat and on the back of a turtle? Is the turtle imaginary and deceased? Get a consensus on what the world is from the major contributors. Assuming it's a basically earthlike world, "land grants" can go by obvious geographic barriers. Leave that definition a little loose, it's a planet, it will have things that don't fit into neat categories. Also don't forget that weather systems, volcanic eruptions and such are not going to respect land grant boundaries. There has to be some sort of Kyoto Accord equivalent for this sort of thing, and it needs to apply to catastrophic magic use, too. And yes, that means the power gamer can't destroy everything with his worldwrecker spell, bonus, but here's the downside: That also means you as a GM can't use the catastrophic fumble you prayed for for the guy who richly deserved it cannot be turned into "a vast space where the grass will never grow again, and is now used by wizards to instruct their apprentices in The Dangers."

Gods, etc. - It wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that it's verifiable. Somewhere out there is someone who can say, "Yep, it's magic all right, and it's being drawn from _____ source." Therefore the latitude you have in your definition of "God", "soul", "angel", etc. has to fit within a common framework of rules for that kind of magic use. Beyond that, why should you care what Gods they worship on the other side of the impassable mountains, or why? Those aren't the real Gods anyway, right?

Races - Personally, I like this attitude

All I'm saying is forget the syereotypical races and focus on the WHY of the who, wich will allow for a consistent setting with the races it needs, not just the races of tradition.

In my own defense, the reason I have the races I do is because I started that world project in the mid 80s using RM1, the concept of "build your own race" was still years in the future.

But at the same time having a selection of different races for each area will result in instant chaos the moment there is trade between areas (Just cos it says it's impassible doesn't mean it is. A GM can't draw a box so big his players can't crawl outside it), quite aside from being a tough premise to swallow from the start. If you assume that evolution is slow, it kind of implies that a world old enough to produce sentient life is old enough to have selected such sentient life down to a comparatively few species. Personally I'd suggest 2 - 4 races present on a planetary scale, and beyond that "niche races" would require "niche ecologies" to support them. In short, you'd find the cities of the lizardmen in The Great Swamp, but lizardmen really don't do well anywhere else, that sort of thing.

[David Johansen]

Well, I was looking at elves and dwarves and orcs because they're in this game called Rolemaster.  No, really, you can look it up.  But even if they weren't, one of the design goals is modules that non-rolemaster fans will want to buy and drop into their games using that other system, then the world needs to be sufficiently generic for that.

Now just for fun we could set aside a corner of the world to be completely bizzare and give some people land grants there if that's what they want.  The southern or eastern continent would both work just fine.  Now, in my own Rolemaster campaign world there's a continental scale parasite called Tzoldria and it's a very odd place.  In fact the hyphae it sends out are actually what people call hell.  (heaven's in geosynchronous orbit and hell's underground) Suppose for a moment, what with soft areas being cannon for the world, one of those continents used to be far away but keeps getting closer and closer?

[markc]

 This sounds like something that was attempted a few years ago.


 Some of the problems I saw then:
1) Control: Who controls the thing, are others willing to let them control it, $ and control, and control because a lot of gamers do not like to give it up but win, win and win.
2) Collaboration: everyone following the rules and when and who can violate the worlds rules. Because these small violations make the world a more interesting place.
3) Material Quality: It is hard to get everyone on the same page on quality and just what is expected in their section. 




BTW, Some of the above ideas sound a lot like some other proposed settings I have been looking at or in the past have been settings. But that does not mean it will not work or be good in any means. It is just my 2 cents.


MDC

[Cory Magel]

I hate to sound like I'm shooting this idea down somewhat... but what is happening here is a insignificant compared the arguments that would occur once things actually started to get developed in such an endeavor.

One person wants Elves in their twilight, maybe one person wants elves as a main power, maybe one person doesn't even want elves to exist.  Things like that can't be the 'standard' for the whole world if you really want a world built by a collaborative effort of fans.

Explain the most basic things for the entire world only. Things that couldn't possibly change. One good example...
- Peoples idea of and explanation for magic is GOING to vary, but if you aren't going to leave it up to the people who decide to use the world you should probably at least set it up so that they all have a common basic idea behind them.  The most base origin of Channeling, Essence and Mentalism.  Then there could be multiple forms of how that basic origin gets manipulated.  Essence could simply be energy and some people pull it from the elements (Fire, Cold, Air, Water, Light), some pull it from magnetic fields, etc.  Channeling is really the same basic concept, but in one land is absorbed by 'deities' from their followers and channeled to their minions (which includes Channeling using mortals), in another it is a general concept or idea that people pull power from, and in another the very powerful beings that don't need followers and instead just gather it themselves somehow and then dole it out.  Mentalism is simply developing the power of your mind, but different lands could have very different explanations for it.

Consider that maybe, in a world with primarily isolated continents Elves developed in one land, while Dwarves developed in another, and on another maybe there are intelligent dinosaurs and not, what we would consider, humanoids.

If you aren't willing to look at it this way, then you don't want a collaborative effort.  You want people to write in YOUR game world.

[David Johansen]

Well, I guess that any roleplaying game is a social contract.  One attempt I recall, had an exasperated Tim eventually anounce that we would do a medieval fantasy world for everyone else and a Victorian London game for me.  Now, I was talking about a multi world setting in which Victorian London was a Tanelorn / Paradise city at the center of all things but it was certainly off the map.

The reason I think this can work, is that ICE can simply say, "We are building a GENERIC fantasy world and we are doing land grants.  If you don't want a GENERIC fantasy world, go write for someone else because that's not what we're doing."

The sad truth is that Tekumal, Jorune, and Talisantia are at best foot notes in the industry.  Like it or not the elves and dwarves fantasy is the single biggest market segment in the industry and will until my debutants at a posh party diceless "princess diaries" game brings roleplaying to twelve year old girls where it belongs. 

It's a funny thing but I have this theory that ICE needs products that can appeal to the market beyond the Rolemaster niche.  Sure I'd like a fantastic Victorian London where you can set sail and wind up in Barsoom.  Or a very straight up western game.  Or a primeval world where humans are neolithic savages and lizardmen rule the earth.

But I can always write those.  There are at least a million things I wouldn't be pitching to ICE that aren't Rolemaster related.

[markc]

Cory;
 I agree that some basic rules need to be worked out and put forth as non-changeable except by the main author.


 IMHO it should also be decided what books are going to be used as the "world" game focus. IE RMSS/FRP with all Companions, that gives you some good rules to work with and an idea about what is going to be required.
 Now that does not mean your section has to have all of those things but it does provide and outline to work with.


 IMHO divine beings are very important to define for any game with channeling magic. Once the main author creates the rules then their can be rule exceptions or small changes for various sections of the world.


 Also if I was going to work on then project I would like a larger area to work with. The smallest being defined by culture. IE a nomadic culture would have a larger area than a city centric culture.


MDC   

[GrumpyOldFart]

If my sainted cleric wanders in the wilderness until he has crossed the impassible wasteland and come to _____... okay, how does his magic with his Gods work in your section?

Inquiring minds are gonna want to know.

[David Johansen]

 Also if I was going to work on then project I would like a larger area to work with. The smallest being defined by culture. IE a nomadic culture would have a larger area than a city centric culture.

That might be a way to go.  I was thinking to divide some cultures and stuff but yeah, a little more geographic and cultural divisions might work better than hexes.  Not as wargamey anyhow.

Part of the problem is that Rolemaster has somewhat self selected for intelligent or perhaps educated fans.  The old eighties paradim where game companies can be disdainful of their customers and be arrogant and unapproachable is worthless in a world where anyone can put out a professional looking product and market it world wide on the internet.

But wanting other people to write my world?  No, everything I wrote here was off the cuff based on what I believe might be a servicable market niche.  I think over-the-top, irrational, cartoonish settings may be hitting their saturation point and there is not much being done today that is structured and believable.

If my sainted cleric wanders in the wilderness until he has crossed the impassible wasteland and come to _____... okay, how does his magic with his Gods work in your section?

Inquiring minds are gonna want to know.

Planar locations are not directly geographically equivilant and the cleric's faith forms a conduit.

[Chris Seal]

Explain the most basic things for the entire world only. Things that couldn't possibly change. One good example...
- Peoples idea of and explanation for magic is GOING to vary, but if you aren't going to leave it up to the people who decide to use the world you should probably at least set it up so that they all have a common basic idea behind them.  The most base origin of Channeling, Essence and Mentalism.  Then there could be multiple forms of how that basic origin gets manipulated.  Essence could simply be energy and some people pull it from the elements (Fire, Cold, Air, Water, Light), some pull it from magnetic fields, etc.  Channeling is really the same basic concept, but in one land is absorbed by 'deities' from their followers and channeled to their minions (which includes Channeling using mortals), in another it is a general concept or idea that people pull power from, and in another the very powerful beings that don't need followers and instead just gather it themselves somehow and then dole it out.  Mentalism is simply developing the power of your mind, but different lands could have very different explanations for it.

I suspect that these sorts of decisions can't be made by committee and need someone to say "this is how it is". I see this thread as more of a brainstorming session for ideas which can be revised at a later stage, once these decisions have been made. With that in mind we should all be prepared to chuck out anything that doesn't fit at that point in time.

[David Johansen]

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that the setting needs to support the existing rules framework.  From the most basic stand point we are talking about setting and adventure modules for a roleplaying game.  While we may be looking for a more mythical, nuanced feel, it's important to keep the end in mind and create something people can actually play.

I always thought the old ICE magazine Grey Worlds was a particularly evocative title.

[Cory Magel]

I suspect that these sorts of decisions can't be made by committee and need someone to say "this is how it is". I see this thread as more of a brainstorming session for ideas which can be revised at a later stage, once these decisions have been made. With that in mind we should all be prepared to chuck out anything that doesn't fit at that point in time.

Precisely.  Just wanted to make sure everyone understood something like this isn't like getting together to play the weekend game.  If it's an 'official' setting there will be a baseline freelancers would be given to work from.

Granted, throw out all the idea ya'll want, just don't get your feelings hurt if/when they aren't potentially used. (I'm saying this as a Freelancer, not as a decision maker).

OH, and yammahooper... why Elves?  Because it's RM, which came from MERP, which is the epitome of "Elves."
And, as someone else mentioned, because I think one of the goals of RM should be to start going after D&D customers again (or, really, just advertising it's existence at all again).

[David Johansen]

Okay, let's start a real fight.

"Elves"  What is an elf exactly?  We've already ruled out definition by origin.

Obviously the Rolemaster elves need to exist but not necessarily in the same cultural context.

From that root we have a race that is immortal (or close enough anyhow), fair and beautiful, craft wise, and innately magical.  But do we need to assume high elves are the most ancient and favored of the gods?  Are wood elves tree hugging hippies or elven barbarians?  Mine are generally celtic and human sacrificing.  "That's why the gods made humans so short lived and fast breeding.  The gods like to be fed regularly."  Okay, I've never had anyone like a single one of my elf NPCs in thirty years of gaming.

Now, I'm not talking about the sloppy shuffle like "High Elves are Samurai."  But I'm thinking it would serve ICE's needs well if we dodged around a certain well known fantasy propery's tropes.