Topic: Are low level casters underpowered?

[Cory Magel]

From about 11 years old until maybe about 17-18 or so I played D&D. Starting with basic red box and going into 2nd ed. We ended up re-writing a large percentage of the system.  One of the things I hated about D&D was pre-memorizing spells.  It was incredibly limiting and made no sense to me anyhow.  Why the heck would you forget how to cast a spell that you have memorized lord knows how many times before?  Anyhow... I digress on that one.  We also implemented critical hit charts and were using Rolemaster products before it was even a full game system.  These were the two biggest immediate problems I had with D&D.

So, needless to say I absolutely love Rolemasters spell system.  You use spell points like we had modified D&D to.  You have variable effect other than "X damage" and maybe x2 if you crit (and I think that was even a house rule at the time for us).  You have profession specific spells that aren't shared with several other profession types (the only thing I really don't like about HARP's spell system). Etc, etc.  It would be nice to see the whole scaling option be integrated into RM, but it would be a cumbersome project and would really require re-writing all the spell lists.  It might also cause some problems with some of the higher end Rolemaster spells.  However, I think some simple fixes could be made to make low level RM casters slightly stronger at low level (which, in turn, means arms users would need a high-level solution implemented as they are the weaker ones at those levels).

[Marc R]

I suspect a lot of that speed imbalance comes down to ranking rate. . .arms are limited to 2 ranks/level in all skills but armor and linguistics, while casters are going at 3+ ranks per level in their core skill (SLA).

I disagree that casters are weaker than arms at low level. . .their PP mean that when they have PP they are more powerful, but once they spend that potential they are weaker, so casters have two states, powered (and powerful) and depleted (and weak). . .it's more noticeable at low levels as "casting to depletion" happens more often. . .a 50th level caster run out of PPs is a lot weaker than a 50th level arms character for instance. . .but that's pretty much the acknowledged balance point. . .Casters get to warp reality, arms and skill based characters are not limited by power points.

But in all the versions of RM, casters rank at 50+% faster rate in their core skill, and generally for cheaper overall costs. . .it should not be surprising they pull ahead over time.

[markc]

IMHO another thing to consider is usefulness vs power. IMHO usefulness and power are generally not the same as most people consider power to be ability to get rid of opponents and usefulness is ability to get stuff done.
But some consider the two above the same.

MDC 

[Marc R]

I equate power = useful not raw killing ability, but yeah, I could see where some people see power as a measure only of combat usefulness.

[Elton Robb]

Overall a selection of any five of the above lists to 3rd level would offer a wide variety of fun and useful things to do as a caster.

When I got D&D Basic when I was twelve, I was happy as a lark when I saw the Phantasmal Force spell.  Although not really weak, it created illusions that can create all sorts of effects.  Similarly, the Ventriloquism spell could have been useful in a combat situation.  You cast that and threw your voice from something, like an idol's head.  Thus distracting your opponents.  Sleep and Magic Missile weren't needed at all if you had charm person and ventriloquism.

Checking Spell Law, there are some useful spells on the Lesser Illusions list that could be used to great effect.  Not to mention shining a light beam in someone's eyes when you use light law.  Warm Solid and Warm Liquid could get you out of a sticky situation.  One could be used to melt ice.

[RandalThor]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but isn't the real payoff for RM spellusers the higher levels when they outshine the non-spellusers by a fair margin. The trade off here is that at the lower levels the arms-users are tougher, and a bit more capable than the spell-users, but when the levels start adding up, the spell-users start to gain then ultimately pass the arms-users. Like Jedi in the d6 Star Wars. To me, it seems as though that is how it is supposed to be and it is OK.

[Marc R]

I still think that's debatable. . . .a 1st level Magician can do a lot of non combat things. . .and can be remarkably effective in combat via Sleep V. . .there's no direct way a non caster could take down 5 people in  one shot. . .So a 1st level caster is at or above the potential power of a 1st level non. . . the thing is that they spend so much time not casting, either saving it for later or cast out, that often they are acting way below their poential power level. . .making the arms shine as they act at power level constantly. . . .at higher levels, when casters can cast and still have points left, they tend to cast more often, so they are acting at their power level most of the time. . .and thus seem more powerful. . . .

[providence13]

Are low level casters underpowered?

IMO, no, low level casters aren't underpowered.
They are very aware of their own mortality.

The 1st lvl Magician boils water because it's less likely to put him into a coma. Fighters can fumble, but not when they put on their armor or remove a helmet.

Mages can do combat, control, defense, elements, weather, brew tea, construction, research, Google, wiki & tweet with the best of them.
Yet, each one of these can kill a mage. The less-skilled make tea and throw it at their enemies. If they try any more, opening a magic rift or bursting into flames are around the corner.

[Cory Magel]

I still think that's debatable. . . .a 1st level Magician can do a lot of non combat things. . .and can be remarkably effective in combat via Sleep V. . .there's no direct way a non caster could take down 5 people in  one shot. . .So a 1st level caster is at or above the potential power of a 1st level non. . . the thing is that they spend so much time not casting, either saving it for later or cast out, that often they are acting way below their potential power level. . .making the arms shine as they act at power level constantly. . . .at higher levels, when casters can cast and still have points left, they tend to cast more often, so they are acting at their power level most of the time. . .and thus seem more powerful. . . .

If you use all the rules as is for casters, with no house rule changes or tweaks, casters have it hard in my opinion.

For example (it has been some time since I really studied up a LOT on spell casting) I believe a 1st level character trying to cast a 3rd level spell is going to have a huge penalty to do so.  You have to be something like six levels higher than a spell to cast it without any prep before you don't have a negative to your base skill simply due to caster vs spell level difference.  That start throwing in all the other possible factors... PP exhaustion, Hit exhaustion, if you are or aren't using your voice or hands, possible armor penalties... gah, just give me a sword!

[Marc R]

That's where arms excel. . .is a constant, consistent level of power all the time. I've known mid level mages to go an entire session not casting, sometimes out of pure paranoia that they'd "Need those PP later". . .lol. . .not casting, they came along to make lore checks and offer sphynxlike advice.

[Cory Magel]

A bit part of the opinion of whether casts are underpowered depends greatly on game style.  So as you and others have said, they often prove more useful in certain peoples groups at low levels.  Out main GM's campaigns are really more of a series of battles tied loosely together with a basic plot-line.  Not knocking his game at all... the majority of us really enjoy tactical combat.  But as a result low level casters will suffer more as a result of that play-style.

[Marc R]

Even on a combat only measure. . . a mage with 10 PP and Sleep V is like dragging a small cannon around with 10 shots. . .as long as they have PP, they are potentially stronger than the arms characters, when they run out, they are a lot weaker. . .the average "strength" value variation lies in the fact an arms character can act at 100% for 100% of the session.

[Athelstaine]

In my opinion casters are only limited in power based off the player controlling it. I have seen some of my players do some amazing things with just a simple telekinesis spell,and i have seen some real bonehead maneuvers as well.
Really boils down to the player cause there is a lot of utility that casters get access to. Granted if you want to simply make a Monty Python "..some call me Tim?" then yes i feel that you may be limited on the pure dps side (Sorry carry over from the MMO's i play)

[Marc R]

That's true of all characters though. . .a tactically minded Arms character is far more effective than one who is not. . .both in and out of combat.

[thrud]

Imho it's fairly balanced and you know what you're up agains when you create a mage.
Playing a mage puts another set on demands on the player though. It's far easier to play a standard fighter than a magic user.
Being a magician you have to know your spells and think up creative ways to use them.
To get ahead you need to plan and think everything through.

[RandalThor]

Sleep V is a non-instantaneous spell, meaning that a level 1 mage gets a -55 to their spellcasting manuever if they try to cast it in one round. Waiting often means being too late in RPGs, and while the mage is "concentrating" the fighter is busy plugging away. So, yes, low-level spellcasters are weaker than nons, but it is OK. They get really great later on, and they are the tomes of knowledges for groups - at least they should be. (Of course, the knowledge stuff is only good so long as the GM running the game allows that knowledge to mean something.....

[Cory Magel]

It's actually not as bad as it seems.  If you assume some things (like using hands and shouting during casting) doing a quick estimate a first level caster really only needs a fairly low skill in order to cast it successfully.  I'm guessing you'd get it off maybe 2/3rds of the time on average.

However, and a big however imo, one or two first level spells does not a well rounded caster make...

[RandalThor]

I'm guessing you'd get it off maybe 2/3rds of the time on average.

I, for one, would not like to bet my life (and those of my comrades) on a 2/3rds bet..... of course, there are times where it is necessary.

However, and a big however imo, one or two first level spells does not a well rounded caster make...

Very true, but a low level caster isn't supposed to be well rounded, he isn't even supposed to be rounded, but barely arc-able. (Am I being arrested for murdering the English language?)

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

You know, most professions would be able to defeat monsters. OTOH, how many would insure you have hot soup and hot coffee in all circumstances, without the need to light a fire that would give away your position in hostile environments?
For that, I say a mage with the ability to boil water is way more essential to your team than any other character with fighting abilities!