Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Marc R on January 15, 2011, 11:18:39 AM
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If you should apply to large part of the user base then I think you need to stick to the core races. For everyone that think characters with wings is awesome you will find another who hate the idea totally. It very much depend on the campaign/setting what fits.
Actually I also think the question is bit badly phrased. The essential bit is really handling cultures (defined generic ones vs build your own cultures), the race is just one mechanical detail of the culture. Say for instance...what about if you had a random culture generator that let you adjust parameters like degree of combat orientation and then let you roll dice to determine the specifics. A build your own world toolkit that also generated the mechanical aspects of cultures and races?
I always considered race to be only the mechanical aspects. . .Culture is totally different. . .I've been in games where the Elves could have stepped out of Tolkien, I've been in games where elves were more like the fey, and broken into Seelie and Unseelie factions at war with each other, I've been in games where the elves were the ruling class of an urban imperial caste society with half elves in the middle and humans at the bottom. . .all the same mechanical elves, but all with different cultural/social behaviors and goals.
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I agree, for the most part though I'd say that a Elf with wings or gills ceases to be part of the same race because it is physically different and thus deserves seprate treatment in the rules even though they might share similar cultures. For the same reasoning I'd argue there being a rationale for the Wood/High/Grey/Dark elf splits. Yes, each could be raised in a different culture which might affect their skill base, but most races evolved for specific environments and that should be the primary factor.
Humans on the other hand....
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We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people ;)
I'm not sure that I even like 'culture' as a game mechanical concept.
'Background' is much more useful term when considering adolecense ranks and such.
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I think of "cultural ranks" or "adolescent ranks", or whatever label you choose to assign them, as a guideline more than anything else. When dealing with AIs in a SF game I decided that for an AI to have "cultural" or "adolescent" ranks was ludicrous. However it made perfect sense for them to have "operating system" ranks, which are identical in terms of the game mechanics.
Take for example, "Militaristic" cultural background. Militaristic as in medieval Japan, or Roman Empire, or Aztec, or Comanche, or what? You could reasonably expect the 4 examples above to have some fairly stark differences in the skill set that was just "absorbed" by virtue of immersion in the parent culture, could you not?
On the one hand I could see the sense in having half or more of cultural/adolescent ranks be fixed, and the remainder be chosen by the GM and player to work with the player's character concept. On the other hand, I could also see that opening the door for a fair amount of abuse, too, so I can't claim to have a good answer for this one. Other than to suggest that if you have enough confidence in your skill/experience as a GM, then look at the total number of ranks normally assigned to adolescence/culture and assign them yourself to fit the character's backstory.
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We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people ;)
I want exactly that possibility. Granted, it's very easy for me to do this myself within the system, but I see no reason why you couldn't separate race from culture. It's not going to mess anything up to any large extent.
That way you put out a core system that has: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Gnomes.
Then you put out a largish single book or multiple books that sub-divide each race into sub-races.
Humans: Hillman, Mountain Man, Mariner, Ruralman, Urbanman, Plainsman
Elves: High, Wood, Grey, Underground
Dwarves: Mountain, Hill, Plains
...and so on.
Then you have optional rules for what to do when a Wood Elf is raised by Mountain Dwarves. i.e. Culture, Background, Adolescence, whatever.
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We consider race and culture two sides of the same coin actually. This is obviously not correct in the real world, but for a fantasy game it is very appropiate. We have no need for the rare dwarf that was raised among forest people ;)
I want exactly that possibility. Granted, it's very easy for me to do this myself within the system, but I see no reason why you couldn't separate race from culture. It's not going to mess anything up to any large extent.
That way you put out a core system that has: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Gnomes.
Then you put out a largish single book or multiple books that sub-divide each race into sub-races.
Humans: Hillman, Mountain Man, Mariner, Ruralman, Urbanman, Plainsman
Elves: High, Wood, Grey, Underground
Dwarves: Mountain, Hill, Plains
...and so on.
Then you have optional rules for what to do when a Wood Elf is raised by Mountain Dwarves. i.e. Culture, Background, Adolescence, whatever.
This of course results in the Hobbit Mage Mountain Man.
Is Mixed Man Mage Mountain Man reduntant?
God save me.
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You just saw the word "elf" and rode the hate across the rest of that post didn't you? ;)
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This of course results in the Hobbit Mage Mountain Man.
(queue Austin Powers voice): Yeah baby!
Seriously, what's bad about the option to do that?
;D
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(He hates elves with a passion that has no bottom or limit?)
Try Dwarf raised by human fishermen.
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(He hates elves with a passion that has no bottom or limit?)
Try Dwarf raised by human fishermen.
I have this mental image of a Dwarf showing up for the Shadow World olympics diving competition and all the Elves whispering 'What the hell is he doing up there?'
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heh...
I've had players be offended by my treatment of elves in the past.
Really I blame D&D. Here you have this writer who's convinced that playing non-humans is somehow inferior and childish but then he makes elves twice as good as everyone else and wonders why people don't play humans.
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That D&D Elf class was kickass. . .the first multi-class before multi-classing existed!!! <ducks foam shooting from yamma's mouth.>
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Well, in my white box D&D elves could alternate between fighter and magic-user but couldn't go on an adventure as both. They couldn't ride horses because their legs wouldn't spread wide enough either. I'm not sure if the elf was a class in the original supplements because I never had those, just the white box I got from the bargain bin on vacation one year.
Really though Elves make great villains. In my last campaign we had this one player who spent half the time just shell shocked by the behavior of the elves. Mind you, the other half the time he was shell shocked by the behavior of the other players. I think it was around the time when after accidentally "sacrificing" a messenger in a chapel. (Well the gods took it that way and were pleased anyhow.) They started looking for other potential gifts to the gods. They killed another PC's father in a church, but the gods weren't so pleased that time because they actually liked the vicious elven sob...
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(I think he may actually explode. . .starts digging bomb shelter)
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Maybe Elves really exist in Holland and yammahoper blames them for raiding his garden or something...
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(You know not what you trifle with. . . .)
Yamma, is there a story at the bottom of the elf-hating, or is it just a gut, semi-instinctual thing?
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I'm pretty sure it's normal for any healthy, upstanding, intelligent person.
Bloody elves :(
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Maybe Elves really exist in Holland and yammahoper blames them for raiding his garden or something...
Elves in Holland? Ah, then there might be a reason for Aquatic Elves after all then....
;)
I'm fairly sure that a few small modifications to the skills listing in the "Racial summary" to represent cross-diversity in the culture that it was raised in... those skill ranks which are cultural based being listed in a discrete section, much like the hobby ranks...can be done without a major reworking. Those people who do want "the exception to the written race" then having set guidelines to do so in one place akin to the Harp method. Until they do want to do this then it's simpler to use the race as originally intended by the author.
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Elves are pansies. Dwarves are way cooler :D
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What the OP is describing is what we're doing now. We have (for example) 5 cultures that have humans as playable races, none of which get the same stat or skill bonuses & penalties...a plainsman culture should not get the same background adjustments as a culture built around the sea and sailing after all...
We have changed character creation to reflect this...I encouraged my players to choose thier culture before their race...they commented that profession and skill choices seemed to flow much clearer this way...
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What about the Dwarven River Traders from RMSS/FRP Races and Cultures book?
MDC
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In my HARP games I split culture into two aspects - Race and Society - so half your culture comes from your racial heritage and half from where you grew up. So each race has a set of cultural skill ranks and each location/culture provides the other half.
From memory, given it has been awhile since I have played RM, this should be relatively easy to do in RM.
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Elves are pansies. Dwarves are way cooler :D
I'll never forget the party that contained the Dwarf Fighter, Dain Brammidge, and the Elf Mage, Boj Giorg.
::)
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(You know not what you trifle with. . . .)
Yamma, is there a story at the bottom of the elf-hating, or is it just a gut, semi-instinctual thing?
Even I have had elven characters.
In RM2, the mage Fee Werland was one of my all time favorites. Honestly. Of course, he knew his place and worked to help usher in the age of man, being a middle earth campaign. Yes, I ran a campaign were a group of powerful elves, mostly 2nd agers with a few 1st agers, tried to over throw the will of Eru and supplant mankind as the natural inheritors of the world. As someone posted, they make great villians. Court of Ardor was an amazing module to boot.
I dislike the elves are superior approach. I dislike them as PC's because most players make no attempt to portray the alien, immortal personalities of being elven: THE RACE IS ALMOST ALWAYS A STAT GRAB.
Munchkins can't leave elves alone. Elven archer rangers in any system...yuck. Their long lives provide players with all sorts of weird advantages. I also don't like the high level elf that retires then wants to sponser every future PC the player makes cuz the elf is lecherous and constantly spawns bastard offspring it wants to give a part of its heritage too: like a +15 flaming sword for the fighter or that staff of lightning to the lay healer.
Legolas against the elephants was fun to watch, but my game has physics in it. Magic, yes, AND physics.
I am plain and simply tired of em. Superior and immortal or live 1500 yrs (read: immortal). The dumbest mechanics are entered to explain and compensate (look at the old dnd age tables; elves start adventuring at 90 years old or so...overwhelmingly stupid and...and...nonsense).
Next up; why elves? Why does every gaming world have them? Tolkien had a reason, and I accept them easiest (though I have learned to not like them much over the years). Elves will be part of the world, and have absolutely no reason to exist (this is true of more races than justthe elves).
Elves and dwarves hate each other (why?). It's almost always "just cuz" or some long ago war. Yawn.
Elves and orcs hate each other...elves are inheriently "right" cuz they protect the forest and nature. Elves are masters of magic. Elves have superior perceptive abilities: sight, smell, hearing, seeing magic, visions, but mostly I hope, my butt in thier face.
This elven fetish completely ignores the amazing and complex reality of being human. In fact, every superior elven trait is only an exageratted human trait. Their is nothing alien or mytical about them, they are only exagerrated supermen with abilities we wish we had. Of course, rather than working to develop the experience and skill set and go through the blood and tears of gaining those abilities in a game setting, why not just play an elf because they START with so many of them, or provide a short cut to higher bonuses? As previously stated, elven characters draw munchkins.
In the game, other races are so much cooler and interesting. Humans are at the top of my list, orc types probably next. I enjoy playing a disadvantaged PC that seeks to find a niche for itself in the world while being hated on by most, particularly the elves, who define all we should like and love and admire and want to be and by golly, if the elves say its bad, well jeepers creepers it just must be bad.
I say stick a knife in the elf and move on. Their is no way I, as a mortal, am gonna try and base my life style on elvish anything. On a more positive note, if elvish children take 90 freaking years to actually reach level one, lets abduct their children, use them as free slave labor for 60-80 years, and when they grow old enough to become a threat, they can support nature as fertilizer in our orchards and we can go get more young elves!
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Greetings
I have a (non-RM) fantasy game running where the PCs are all human and their experience with the aelfar/fae was unsettling to say the least - no-one got hurt but the PCs were pretty scared. I'm not sure I could manage a fae PC in that setting as the player would struggle to manage a lot of cultural issues over and above the inability to speak falsehood (omit truth/imply something etc are fine ...), their ties to the particular geography, their relations with their 'Dukes' etc. This isn't a particularly new concept drawing as it does on some of the other stories of elves, but it makes a change for players who've only ever encountered Tolkien version elves.
Regards
Edward
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I think it would be good to try harder to give elves some limitations. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay elves have exceptional stats but fewer fate points with which to escape certain death. Personally any character I feel is unbalanced simply doesn't get any plot immunity.
There was this dwarf berserker with a double headed flail from the races and cultures book who never seemed to fumble (01-09 & 2 attacks per round) So when a shadow elf shanked him in a melee, I let him die plain and simple. Usually when a PC takes a certain death crit I allow some setting related remedy (poor paladin owing favors to the druidic gods...) but if they've got a broken and abusive character well, then they don't need my help right?
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Getting lucky on your rolls doesn't exactly seem to justify calling a character unbalanced and treating it in an unfavorably biased manner.
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On the continent of Kuhara, with six possible PC nationalities, these are the races, with the number of cultures for each in parentheses: Dwarves (3, although variation is slight in game-mechanical terms), Elves (1), Halflings (1), Humans (7, with subcultural breakdowns of lower, middle, and upper class for the true urbanites), Orcs (2), Snakemen (1). There'd actually be more, but I'm lazy. Humans see the most variation, but the Elven and Dwarven populations are culturally united by the presence of an ancient civilization of their kind, whereas the rest are newcomers. Snakemen are rather rare in any case, and mostly concentrated along the southern coast. Theoretically, if I were less lazy or had a player looking to make a character of a kind that demanded it, I'd have another culture for Elves and a couple more for Halflings. But go to another continent and every one of the those races would have a different culture, I just haven't detailed them out yet. I'm varying adolescent skills, languages, typical hobby skills, cultural weapons for initial selections, and in some cases Everyman/Occupational/Restricted skill assignment.
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Deverry elves are plain living and breed horses. This mean that if not race and culture are independent then RM is unable to handle such settings. For any given game world it is very likely that elves has a single culture, but that is setting issue and not something the game rules should enforce.
Speaking about ranks from cultures...I am of the firm belief that a culture should be a pools of DP instead of ranks. Each culture give a certain amount of DP to spend on athletic skills. The player can move DPs between pools at the exchange ratio of 1:2. With this setup we get the best of RM2 and RMSS. Culture mean something about what the character tried to learn as kid, but the profession of the character mean something when it is decided how much of it they managed to learn.
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Everyone should be aware that ICE did eventually split race and culture (http://www.ironcrown.com/?page_id=683 (http://www.ironcrown.com/?page_id=683)), although I'm not sure how they did it, since I've never seen that Races and Cultures book. I didn't find it that difficult to do myself, so I don't have a lot of interest in that particular book.
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Advantage of that book is that it focuses on the Shadow World races/cultures.
There are a few points that I might quibble about, but in general it was well written and allows you to spec up PCs and NPCs in a nice, consistent manner ...
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Deverry elves are plain living and breed horses. This mean that if not race and culture are independent then RM is unable to handle such settings. For any given game world it is very likely that elves has a single culture, but that is setting issue and not something the game rules should enforce.
Speaking about ranks from cultures...I am of the firm belief that a culture should be a pools of DP instead of ranks. Each culture give a certain amount of DP to spend on athletic skills. The player can move DPs between pools at the exchange ratio of 1:2. With this setup we get the best of RM2 and RMSS. Culture mean something about what the character tried to learn as kid, but the profession of the character mean something when it is decided how much of it they managed to learn.
I am going to guess that they did it that way to make it easy on new/nerer players. But I could be wrong.
MDC
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Personally undefined ranks or DPs in packages are the real reason RMSS character creation bogs down so badly for newbies. Flipping back to the skill list happens far too often.
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Advantage of that book is that it focuses on the Shadow World races/cultures.
That's a disadvantage for those who don't use Shadow World.
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Personally undefined ranks or DPs in packages are the real reason RMSS character creation bogs down so badly for newbies. Flipping back to the skill list happens far too often.
I don't understand what you mean. It is given that flipping book pages take time, but if you have the available DP, the costs (recorded on your character sheet) and the skill list you can keep the skill list open.