Topic: Armor Crit Protection

[Nders]

and that if the strength bonus is greater than the encumbrance penalty, that it can be used to reduce the Quickness Penalty from armor as well.

This indeed would strongly indicate that it is not a matter of only reducing penalties to movement.

Also I would like to note that the practice of reducing qu penalties with strength does great things for the balancing of races and creating natural racial dispositions towards armor. I.e Chain or light plates for elves, heavy plates for high men etc.

[providence13]

Also I would like to note that the practice of reducing qu penalties with strength does great things for the balancing of races and creating natural racial dispositions towards armor. I.e Chain or light plates for elves, heavy plates for high men etc.

Now this would explain alot. 

I'm all for game mechanics/rules actually explaining story lines!
So often, people have a good idea for the story but the rules just don't support the "past of least resistance rule."  I like this.

[providence13]

path of least resistance...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Okay, heard back from the bosses..

[oRule]
Armor quickness penalties, in related to DB, may not be reduced by a high Strength Bonus, in any version of Rolemaster.
[/oRule]

[Nders]

Go back to your boss and make him reconsider!

[Witchking20k]

LOL.  I agree with no-QU reduction.  Otherwise everyone would wear plate

[Ecthelion]

Go back to your boss and make him reconsider!

You are free to house rule otherwise, just as we did.

[providence13]

With this mod rule, you could wear plate! (Just as always)
But you'd still need a huge St bonus to off-set those penalties.. which isn't likely for characters I know.

[Marc R]

you'd still be under a lot of other penalties.

[Nders]

which is why it works so well with the st to reduce qu penalties rule, You get your db but you still get a lot of other penalties so that even with a st total of 45 which would be enough to have full db even in at 20 you would still receive a -40 penalty to both missile fire and maneuvers.

[Witchking20k]

I still think there should be a min/max DB penalty. 

[providence13]

Witchking 20k, should there be a min/max because of weight and/or limited range of motion?

If someone of fantastic St wears the armor, it might not slow them down at all. But, I guess, since armor is protective, it's designed to have limited mobility;the joints don't move the full range. Then you'll have a maneuver/missile/Qu (everything) penalty unless you decide to rip through the armor with your fantastic St.

I guess I'm thinking of Androids, Demons, Magic Creatures and such. There seems a point that St could offset the penalties unless the physics of the armor prevent it.
I could fit into a shirt 2 sizes too small. If I glued aluminum foil to the shirt, it might protect me from minor (candle) flames but I had better not make extreme movements or I'll rip the shirt, ruining the "armor".

I'm just thinking out loud, but if the movement penalty (not range of motion) works for magical St, then there's wiggle room for everyone.

[Marc R]

I dunno if we really want to get into crossing over into reality here, as rules/reality don't always mesh well.

A suit of armor was often a major investment, a high end big ticket product. (Think "Car") At bare minimum, it was a critical bit of life saving gear you'd care about.

Made by a master craftsman. . .and subjected to "test to destruction" on a regular basis, and unlike most situations in history, the rich person paying for it was often the one inside it avoiding getting shanked.

So, it evolved and developed quickly. . .despite what you see in movies.

Full articulated plate (real plate, not super heavy jousting armor) offers essentially full range of motion, weighs about as much as a modern soldier's load, and is properly distributed to spread the weight on shoulders and hips. . .I wouldn't think it'd be a good idea to swim in it (any more than I'd reccomend jumping in a river wearing a full modern load out either) but you could climb a rope, and move essentially unrestricted at essentially normal speed. . .(in segmented plate, Romans jogged 20 miles and then fought a battle). . . .the real life counter issues with closed armor tend to be that it doesn't breathe, so you bake in it, and between that and the weight it's exhausting to wear. . .after running or fighting in it for a couple hours, you would start to resemble the awkward, lumbering motions you see knights making in the movies (likely one of the reasons the Romans chose an "open" segmented plate, being infantry) but due to being exhausted, not restricted. If you wanted reality, armor would have minimal effects on motion and speed, and act as a multiplier of your rate of exhaustion, with the "closed" suits (8, 12, 16, 20) especially so. . .

Since most people ignore exhaustion, the maneuver/Qu mods end up being the balance factor, game wise. . .but if you get into what would be "realistic" you'd need to scrap pretty much all of the current logic.

[Witchking20k]

providence13

Both. 

I played hockey (somewhat competative) and football all throughout highschool.  Still play hockey, non-contact.  And the range of motion in your shoulders and arms in limited by the straps and plates, and these are made with modern fabrics & plastics.  You just cannot bend the same way you could without the padding.  Particularly in the arms, shoulders, and torso (where plate armors are heaviest). 

You do learn to work around the limitations of the equipment, particularly in hockey where you are using your arms more dextrously, but there is still a bare minimum of limitation.  Strength does not overcome that obstacle, nothing will, but experience and training will reduce it.  I learned to roll my shoulders and flex from my torso to generate power and leave my body defensible to contact.  I don't imagine wearing plate armor to be much different.  In scuffles etc (i was literaly a goon) you often let the straps tear away (i had velcro ones)to get your arm free.  Not an option with platemail.

Anyway, I'm just thinking that an experience warrior learns the limitations of their armor over time and can reduce them.  A min/max Qu penalty kinda reflects this, and using ranks in armor skill to reduce it is a handy mechanic as its 1) already part of the core game 2) an accurate reflection of experience & expertise

[Marc R]

With modern amateur athletic equipment you are wearing generic, off the shelf, perhaps available in a couple of sizes gear.

Plate armor would be custom made, and custom fit to you. . .I have a suspicion that professional hockey players' gear fits better and moves better, since it's also custom fitted stuff.

You'd also tend to wear it almost constantly from your early teens on. . .I suspect "natural range of motion" is more key when you live in armor for decades.

The old school SCA people had crappy armor, but as they've gotten better at it, it really has vastly improved to closer to what was more likely real armor, and it moves a lot better. . .there are a few sword-n-armor wearing people on this board who could speak to that better than I, with more detail.

[Witchking20k]

I have no doubt.  I'm just pointing out that there will always be an encumbrance. As for fitting & customizing, we did that.  But you sacrifice protection 9/10 times....Armor can be fitted and reduce this like in HARP.

In game terms. reducing the QU penalty with ranks rflects practive, experience, & footwork, as its part of the skil of Manuevering in armor.

I'm not trying to directly correlate modern sports equipment to old scholl armor, just speaking from a point of experience.

[Marc R]

Your experience is more on point than my experience, the closest I can get is a full body scuba suit. . .

I'm just recollecting tidbits tossed around by the board members who spend their weekends in steel cans bashing each other with metal poles when this subject came up before. . . .Likely one of them will show up and offer a more intelligent, coherent point than I can pull off on this subject.

[Witchking20k]

I understand.  Thats the same perspective I'm coming from.