Author Topic: Using Adrenal Maneuvers  (Read 2636 times)

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Online jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2022, 11:43:44 PM »
In RMU, you have to spend the previous round Concentrating (which takes half of your activity for the round, regardless of haste etc), and then you make a maneuver roll based on your full skill bonus. It then lasts for one round plus one round for every full 20 you succeed by (e.g. 101-120 is one round, 121-140 is two rounds, etc). The benefit is doubled in the first round if you achieved an absolute success. As noted above, this keeps things moving faster than rolling every round (which isn't just the roll, it's also that the player doesn't know until his turn how much activity he'll have, and that delays figuring out what he will do).

It's possible to spend your entire round Concentrating on two different things (e.g. prepare two different adrenal maneuvers simultaneously), but that's the whole round (plus a little movement) and it requires a Mental Focus maneuver as well.

In my current games, I have one PC who uses these heavily and has invested a lot of points in using them. Between adrenal speed, multiple attacks skill, and making quick attacks, he often makes six attacks per round (at -25 each), and very often starts fights with adrenal strength too. (The limitation is that four of those attacks are unarmed, and do not do a lot of damage.) And then I have another PC who has a little adrenal strength but has not figured out that he has to plan ahead even one single round and consequently never uses it at all.
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2022, 07:21:37 AM »
Checking out Rolemaster Classic, it seems clear to me that this isn't what is intended. There is nothing in the Adrenal Moves description about not using the entire skill to make the roll and even references Presence and Self-Discipline as stats you would use. The skill description limits the *benefits* of things like Balance and Falling to your ranks, but activation is the entire skill value.

"ADRENAL MOVES (VARIES)
These skills relate to the development of the art of superhuman effort. Using “concentration” and self discipline, the character skilled in Adrenal Moves must prepare the round before he will use one of these skills. This is accomplished by taking a 20% penalty on action in this preparation round. Adrenal Moves may not be attempted in consecutive rounds, nor may more than one be attempted at any one time. Skill ranks in each Adrenal Move must be developed separately. Each Adrenal Move counts as a separate area for development purposes."
It hadn't occurred to me to check RMC for any clarifications/corrections that had been made on the skill descriptions. Comparing them side by side to RM2, I see that the only difference is that RMC adds the note stating to use Presence/Self-Discipline stat bonuses for all Adrenal Moves.  However, all the other wording is identical, so it's still not clear in my mind where they would specifically be used for each of the types of moves.

Unless the full bonus is used at the beginning of the preparation round and, if it fails, then it just doesn't go off? If that's the case, it I'd think that a note should've been put in at some point to clarify it because it seems to be an important part of the mechanic.

I'm confused by your confusion! :D

It is a skill. All skills, unless stated otherwise, work the same way. As such, making the role is made like any other skill. All AM use the same stat(s) to modify them and level bonuses would be applicable to the activation roll. Nothing in the AM sections states or implies that it would be handled differently. But like Ambush, if you succeed at turning it on, then there is a special mechanic for what it does AFTER that point. I assume they just decided that AM Falling should be reduced by a skill rank bonus rather than attributes and level mods, just like Ambush.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2022, 09:44:43 AM »

Do we know anything about how RMU will handle the Adrenal skills in this regard?

Yes, RMU just makes it a normal 'maneuver roll', which means you use the full skill bonus (not just skill ranks).

There will also be rules about maintaining adrenals beyond the first round, but I am not sure they are in the core.
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Online jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2022, 11:16:58 AM »
The rules about the duration that I quoted above are in the core.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2022, 11:27:55 AM »
The rules about the duration that I quoted above are in the core.

Great!
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2022, 10:42:24 PM »
I think the discrepancy is an error. Note that at the bottom of the description of how the Adrenal Moves work in RM2 Character and Campaign Law (red band edition, p. 53), there is the note, 'Note: Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves'. This is there despite the fact that there is no stat bonus mentioned in any of the skill descriptions above this note. We always took that to mean that the stat bonus was intended to be added to the rolls, even though the verbal description spoke only of 'skill rank bonus'.

RM Companion II also listed 'PR/SD' as the stats for Adrenal Moves, so it would be odd if these stats never came into play.

Fun fact: the original Character Law (RM1, or First Edition, p. 12) said, 'then adds the bonus for his skill level in Strength Adrenal Move'. So I think the error might have crept in during the move from first to second edition, or from the first printings of second edition to the red band printing.
     Further confirming this impression, the first edition printing of Character Law (p. 12), in describing Adrenal Balance, reads, 'skill bonus'. Though this is in reference to the bonus that applies after the concentration maneuver has been made, it does read 'skill bonus' in RM1, but that has been changed in RM2 (red band) to read 'skill rank bonus'. So a change has clearly been made, and I really think it must have been done inadvertently.
     Finally, both RM1 and RM2 had the chart that listed  PR (and PR/SD if using the optional rule about multiple stat bonuses) as the stat for Adrenal Moves.

Final Note: The rules for maintaining adrenals in Companion IV do clearly read 'skill bonus' rather than 'skill rank bonus', at least for the roll to maintain the adrenals.

I wanted to follow up briefly with this because I just got copies of the earlier editions of Character Law. I found that the terminology throughout 1st Ed. (1982) that says "skill levels" is what was called "skill ranks" in later versions (1985, 1989, and so on). This is further corroborated by a note that was added to Martial Arts in 1985 to distinguish between "skill ranks" and "Martial Arts Rank." So it appears to have been a conscious change in terms, not an error.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2022, 09:02:05 AM »
There definitely was a conscious change in terms to distinguish rank bonus from total skill bonus.

However, what makes me confident that total skill bonus was meant to apply is the description of the procedure for resolving Static Actions in the red band edition (p. 46, section 3.3.2). Note that the procedure outlined refers only to the mods in the Static Action Table. This would mean, in the Rules As Written, that characters do not get stat bonuses even for skills such as Tracking, Disarming Traps, and Perception. There is no stat bonus listed on the designated table. That just can't be right, and contradicts examples given elsewhere in the text, as well as the notes that follow each specific skill description that specify what stats apply.

[Similarly, the Runes Staves and Wands table, 15.3.4, does not list any stat modifiers, and speaks only of 'skill bonus'.]

Note too that in the case of Adrenal Defense, there is a note at the end of the skill description specifically stating, 'No applicable stat bonus', whereas in Adrenal moves, the note says, 'Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves'.

So yes, definitely, there is a change in terminology, and it is conscious, but I still think context and logic dictates that something was lost in the translation. Stat bonuses were clearly meant to apply to static actions.
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2022, 12:42:33 AM »
I've tried to compare the three editions of Character Law (1982, 1985, and 1989) and Rolemaster Companion II (1987) to discern where changes may have been made or details lost about how to do the Adrenal Moves. (I realize this may be a bit pedantic, but please bear with me.)

Character Law - 1982 Edition
  • Section 5.71 gives the process for resolving static actions, including assigning mods from the static action table (15.32), adding mods for skill level [rank], and adding mods for stats (if any). (Since Adrenal Moves don't have a designated column on table 15.32, I would infer that they fall under the Misc. column.)
  • Section 5.72 gives the process for resolving maneuvers, including assigning GM-determined mods, adding mods for skill level, and adding mods for stats (if any). (While not explicitly mentioning table 15.32, I would infer that the Maneuver column on that table would apply.)
  • Section 6.6 states that "Adrenal Moves rely on self control and thus are subject to the bonuses derived from Presence." This is corroborated with table 15.14 (and the optional stats of PR/SD). (Stat bonuses that are added to all other skills are specifically described in sections 6.1-6.5.)
  • Section 5.85 for Special Development skills says "the following areas of development are different in many respects from those that have preceded them."
  • Section 5.853 Adrenal Moves states the following mods apply for the different skills: Strength (static) - table 15.32 and skill level bonus; Speed (static) - same as Strength; Balance (maneuver) - skill bonus; Leaping (maneuver) - table 15[.31] and skill level bonus; and Landing (maneuver) - skill level bonus.

Character Law - 1985 Edition
  • Section 3.3 gives the process for resolving static maneuvers (SM), including assigning any applicable mods from the static action table (15.32) and adding "appropriate bonus along with any other applicable modifications." (Note that "skill level" and "stat bonuses" are not explicitly mentioned.)
  • Section 3.3 gives the process for resolving moving maneuvers (MM), including assigning GM-determined mods and "appropriate bonus along with any other applicable modifications." (Note that "skill level" and "stat bonuses" are not explicitly mentioned.)
  • Section 2.4 states that bonuses apply to skills with high enough or low enough stats, with corresponding stats for skills listed in table 15.14. (The table is identical to the 1982 edition.) The descriptive stat assignments from sections 6.1-6.6 in the 1982 edition are now added as footnotes directly following each skill description (i.e., "Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves.")
  • Section 3.8 for Special Skills says "the following areas of development are different in many respects from those detailed in the previous sections." The Adrenal Moves portion of this section states the following mods apply for the different skills: Strength (SM) - table 15.32 and skill rank bonus; Speed (SM) - same as Strength; Balance - skill rank bonus; Leaping (MM) - table 15.31 and skill rank bonus; and Landing (MM) - skill rank bonus. Note that Balance is now specified (clarified?) as using the "skill rank bonus" rather than the total "skill bonus."

Rolemaster Companion II (1987)
  • Section 5.23 gives multiple options for resolving static maneuvers, with Method A (standard resolution) including any applicable mods from the static action table (15.32) and total skill bonus.
  • Section 5.22 gives multiple options for resolving moving maneuvers, with Method A (standard resolution) including skill bonus and "any other applicable modifications."
  • The stat bonuses that apply to skills are inserted directly into the skill descriptions. (PR for Adrenal Moves)
  • Section 7.0 Complete Skill Descriptions states the following mods apply for the different Adrenal skills: Strength (static action) - table 15.32 and skill rank bonus; Speed (static action) - same as Strength; Balance (maneuver) - skill rank bonus; Leaping (maneuver) - table 15.31 and skill rank bonus; and Landing (maneuver) - skill rank bonus. (For completeness's sake, Quick-Draw (maneuver) is the same as Speed.)

Character Law - 1989 Edition
  • Section 3.3.2 gives the process for resolving static maneuvers, including assigning any applicable mods from the static action table (15.3.2) and adding "appropriate bonus along with any other applicable modifications."
  • Section 3.3.1 gives the process for resolving moving maneuvers, including assigning GM-determined mods and "appropriate bonus along with any other applicable modifications."
  • Section 2.4 states that bonuses apply to skills with high enough or low enough stats, with corresponding stats for skills listed in table 15.14. (The table is still identical as before.) The descriptive stat assignments are still added as footnotes directly following each skill description.
  • Section 3.8 for Special Skills says "the following areas of development are different in many respects from those detailed in the previous sections." The Adrenal Moves portion of this section states the following mods apply for the different skills: Strength (SM) - table 15.3.2 and skill rank bonus; Speed (SM) - same as Strength; Balance (MM) - skill rank bonus; Leaping (MM) table 15.3.1 and skill rank bonus; and Landing (SP) - skill rank bonus. Note that Landing is now classified as a "Special" skill rather than a "Moving Maneuver."
What I can see from comparing these various materials is that, while the explicit mention of "skill bonus" or "stat bonus" was removed from the bullet-pointed or enumerated resolution summaries for normal static actions/maneuvers, the idea that total skill bonuses included bonuses from stats remained intact throughout. No version of the Static Action Table (15.32) ever mentioned stat or skill bonuses because that wasn't the point of that table; rather it was for special environmental or conditional modifications. The only functional changes I found between editions are that Adrenal Balance was revised to be consistent with using skill rank bonus and that Adrenal Landing was changed to a Special skill.

Now, the part where I can see Adrenal Moves differ from normal static actions or maneuvers (as implied in their consistent designation as "special" skills), is that they have a preparation/recovery component and that their descriptions as written explicitly designate how and when what bonuses are to be applied. This seems to liken them to spell casting, where there is a preparation portion and then the single casting roll (with appropriate modifications) is made in the round it takes effect. (The correlation for this as related to Adrenal Moves is either "the round it takes effect" or the round the character "will use" the skill as being the opposite of when the -20 penalty applies.)

The descriptions as written for each skill further remained essentially consistent across each edition:
  • Strength and Speed, at the end of the preparation round, each require a 1-100 roll modified by Table 15.3.2 and skill rank bonus. If a roll of 101+ is obtained, then the specified effects apply the following round. Otherwise, nothing happens.
  • Balance and Leaping, in the round after the preparation round, have their skill rank bonuses applied to a separate balancing or leaping maneuver. A specific roll for determining success of the actual Adrenal skill is not performed.
  • Landing does not involve any roll at all, but the skill rank bonus is automatically applied to reduce the effect of the fall distance, with the recuperation penalty occurring the following round.
I'm not aware of any skill that requires two applications (rolls) to determine its success, even when preparation is involved. Thus, unless I've missed something somewhere and/or my interpretations of the skill descriptions are wrong, I still don't see any place where the stat bonus(es) for Presence (and Self-Discipline) would ever apply to these skills. They seem to be flawed from the very beginning in that respect.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2022, 11:30:02 AM »
That is some great work!

You've done a great job showing the evolution of the languages and the skills.

However, I draw the opposite conclusion from this excellent research. In the original version of Character Law, all the skills are described first, and then after that, as you note, there is the section adding that stats apply to skills, and specifically noting that the Presence stat is used for Adrenal Maneuvers. That seems pretty definitive.

I think you might be putting too much weight into the statement in the original Character Law 5.85 that "the following areas of development are different in many respects from those that have preceded them." I think the crucial word here is 'development' -- this means that each of the skills develops differently, but not that they necessarily are resolved/applied differently. Some are indeed resolved differently (e.g. ranks in linguistics don't benefit from stat bonuses) but some are not (e.g. Martial Arts skills are also included in this section, and they clearly DO get stat benefits; they are just included because of their unique 'rank' development system that unlocks some abilities and affects the attack charts). So you can't assume that stat benefits don't apply to any of these skills. And then, the very next section of Character Law (6.0) specifies that Presence does apply to Adrenal Moves. I think you are absolutely right to infer that stat mods are assumed from that point on.

The sequence of rules explanations in the original Character Law thus seems to be part of the problem. First, the rules explain how skill ranks and skill bonuses work, and only after that do they explain that stats also modify skill resolution. So the description of the skills tends not to mention stat mods, but that is not because stat mods are not relevant; it is just because the rules haven't yet explained what stat mods are and how they apply.

Your excellent research here also corrects my point about static actions in the Red Band edition. The description of how to resolve static actions states, '5) All applicable modifications are made to the maneuver roll.' I think you are absolutely right when you state that stat mods are implied here -- or else no one would ever add stat mods to skills like Climbing, Perception, or Stalking and Hiding. Stat mods are implied. This is why, in the later (1989) edition, the stats were specified right under the skills, with Presence being explicitly designated (in the skill description) as the stat for Adrenal Moves.

If not, when specifically would you use Presence to resolve and Adrenal Move skill? The 1989 edition is explicit: 'Use Presence stat bonus for all Adrenal Moves'. When you you 'Use Presence stat bonus' for Adrenal Strength then?

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2022, 11:53:13 AM »
Edit: My last question was meant to be:

When would you 'Use Presence stat bonus' for Adrenal Strength or Adrenal Speed then, as the rules clearly state you should do for all Adrenal Moves?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2022, 02:37:50 PM »
I was typing in haste, and might have misconstrued the last paragraph of your post Elrich, so wanted to summarize:

I think we both agree with your point that stat bonuses are generally implied throughout earlier editions. We agree they would be applied to things like Climbing and Perception. The only thing that remains questionable is whether stats would apply to the Special Skills.

I think the fact that the rules consistently spell out that Presence or Pr/SD are the stats to apply to all Adrenal Moves, coupled with the fact that Adrenal Strength and Speed are explicitly included in this (in the charts in every edition), and that there is no way to apply Presence to Adrenal Strength or Speed other than in the Static Maneuver roll, strongly suggests that stat bonuses were intended to be applied to these skills.

Why would the Companion II specify that the stat to be used for Adrenal Strength and Adrenal Speed is Presence, if there was no way to apply the stat to the roll for these skills?

[I also take as quite persuasive your note that in the table 15.14/15.1.4, Adrenal Moves are clearly denoted as just static actions ('S'), rather than special actions ('SP').]
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Offline Tywyll

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2022, 09:03:46 AM »
I was typing in haste, and might have misconstrued the last paragraph of your post Elrich, so wanted to summarize:

I think we both agree with your point that stat bonuses are generally implied throughout earlier editions. We agree they would be applied to things like Climbing and Perception. The only thing that remains questionable is whether stats would apply to the Special Skills.

I think the fact that the rules consistently spell out that Presence or Pr/SD are the stats to apply to all Adrenal Moves, coupled with the fact that Adrenal Strength and Speed are explicitly included in this (in the charts in every edition), and that there is no way to apply Presence to Adrenal Strength or Speed other than in the Static Maneuver roll, strongly suggests that stat bonuses were intended to be applied to these skills.

Why would the Companion II specify that the stat to be used for Adrenal Strength and Adrenal Speed is Presence, if there was no way to apply the stat to the roll for these skills?

[I also take as quite persuasive your note that in the table 15.14/15.1.4, Adrenal Moves are clearly denoted as just static actions ('S'), rather than special actions ('SP').]

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. It seems fully intentional that the stat mods are added to the maneuver roll to see if you activate the skill. Then, after activation, the skill may operate differently (possibly ignoring the stat at that point). Just like some other skills work differently (Ambush for example). And I'm pretty sure that RMSS explicitly uses the skills this way, indicating that it was the intent all along.

Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2022, 09:57:00 AM »
Before I get too far in, I think it's worth noting that basically the only skills that specifically reference using skill rank bonuses are from the original Character Law. (There are a couple introduced in Arms Companion, but that's it.) Quite a few skills use the number of skill ranks in their resolution, but not the skill rank bonuses.

The three original skills are Runes, Adrenal Moves, and Adrenal Defense. Of these, Adrenal Defense is pretty much a non-issue because it explicitly states that there is no stat associated with the skill. Adrenal Moves we already know about, but Runes is another oddity; one that could have an impact on my ideas about Adrenal Moves.

In Character Law (1982) §5.842, Runes is defined to be resolved by making an open-ended roll, adding the "skill bonus," and including modifications from table 15.34 (Runes and Staves-Wands Table). This table repeats those instructions as a formula, specifically mentioning "skill bonus." Both of these mentions should imply using the full skill bonus with Empathy (and Intuition) as the assigned stat.

In Character Law (1985) §3.7, Runes is redefined to use the "skill rank bonus" in the full skill description, but table 15.34 still mentions "skill bonus." This change carries through to RMC2 (1987) and ChL (1989). In this case, since Runes is a regular magic skill with no delayed or transferred effects (a la Adrenal Moves), if Empathy (and Intuition, and profession bonus, for that matter) are still to be used as described, then it could clearly be seen as a mistake for it to have been changed to "skill rank bonus" from "skill bonus." The fact remains, however, that the description was never changed through two further opportunities to do so. One could have the position that, like filling out a blank check, if there's a question between what was meant, the part that takes the most words to explain takes precedence (e.g., the full, spelled-out dollar amount instead of the numerical amount of the check). In this case, that would mean the full paragraph description would outweigh the small, simple chart reference. However, I'm of the opinion that there's no reason why Runes should be limited to only using skill rank bonus, again, since it's just a straightforward skill with no special effects, and that ChL (1982) was correct all along.

Extending this logic to solving the question of whether to include stat (and profession) bonuses with Adrenal Moves depends, for me, on which Adrenal Move we're talking about. I can see Strength and Speed easily using Pr(/SD) instead of just the skill rank bonus because the rules as written clearly explain a successful roll of the Adrenal Move must be made before any effects are manifested. However, if the original intent WAS just to have the skill rank bonus apply to a successful roll attempt, then two other options surface. First, if Pr(/SD) are truly applicable, then a second, separate roll including them must be made, whose placement is not defined in the sequence of the preparation round/rules-as-written roll/effect round. This would be fairly unique, where two rolls of the same skill must be made for a full resolution (a.k.a. Double-Dipping). It would also be fairly cumbersome and seems unlikely to be unmentioned as such a departure from the normal skill resolution process. The second option is that Pr(/SD) shouldn't really be applicable, but that also seems unlikely because so much effort was made to mention the primary skill (twice, in the description and table 15.14) and a secondary option (+SD).

Since both of those options seem unlikely to be intended, where does that leave us with Adrenal Speed and Strength? I think it's reasonable to assume that stat bonuses should apply to their rolls, but this paints a darker picture for the accuracy of proofreading and copyediting on the original team's part. It would mean that the 1982 description should not have said "skill level bonus" to begin with, the 1985 description should have been changed to "skill bonus" instead of "skill rank bonus," and that the 1987 and 1989 descriptions were further missed for an opportunity at correction -- almost a fractal-level of wrongness.

Now, for Balance and Leaping, the question shifts away from how to make a roll for the skills, themselves, and toward how they are applied to other separate maneuvers. In this case, assuming that only one roll in total is needed to determine success, that roll would necessarily be the secondary maneuver skill made after the preparation round. Otherwise, the same scenario as above of two options being possible comes into play. However, each of these skills has one additional factor that argues against using a second roll. For Balance, the Runes scenario applies, where the original ChL (1982) description said "skill bonus" and later versions all said "skill rank bonus," thus originally implying that the Pr(/SD) bonus would be included in the following balance maneuver. For Leaping, the description says that the (whichever edition you choose) bonus is automatically applied to the leaping maneuver, thus implying that there is no roll at all for the Adrenal Leaping skill, itself.

Finally, the description for Landing states that it automatically reduces the level of the fall, again implying, as with Leaping, that there is no roll at all for the Landing skill, itself. The question, then, for all three of Balance, Leaping, and Landing, actually, is how much bonus was intended to impact either a secondary skill's success or a direct physical effect (either the full Adrenal skill bonus or just the rank bonus). We do know that people did review the skill descriptions over time because ChL (1989) changed Landing from a moving maneuver to a special skill, so the possibility existed that they could have clarified/corrected the other skills, too. I would have no problem using the full skill bonus for these three skills, but that would be a playtesting issue, of which I am no authority to decide.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2022, 11:01:10 AM »
Yup, pretty much what I was thinking (though of course you do it in a much more detailed and better documented way).

So, this is how I would handle each skill:

--For Runes, apply the stat bonus to the Static Action. (I think the issue with Runes is that there simply was some laxity in the editing of the various books, and some terms, most notably 'skill bonus', were not always used consistently.)

--For Adrenal Strength and Speed, apply the stat bonus to the Static Action rolled at the end of the preparation round.

--For Adrenal Landing, apply the stat bonus to the severity of the fall (no roll required, because the bonus 'automatically' applies).

--For Adrenal Leaping, apply the stat bonus to the distance a character can successfully leap (no Static Action roll required, because the bonus 'automatically' applies, but a Moving Maneuver is required for the leap itself, and this is where the stat bonus comes in).

The only one that is still a bit ambiguous then is Balance. I am inclined to apply it to a Static Action made at the end of the preparation round to see if the skill is activated successfully. Such a roll seems required, since there was never any language in any edition's description of Balance saying that any bonus applied 'automatically'. The Companion II does designate this as a Moving Maneuver rather than a Static Action, which is confusing, but to make sense of all this, I think it is easier to apply the stat bonus just to the initial Static Action itself rather than to ensuing Moving Manuever (assuming the former was successful). But really, this one is so ambiguous I think you could go either way on that.


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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2022, 11:31:35 AM »
Oops, scratch what I just said about Balance.

I see now that a preparation or recuperation round is always required, but a Static Action is not always required. Static Actions are only required for Strength and Speed.
          In the case of both Leaping and Balance, the character still must take the preparation round before getting the bonus, and in the case of Landing the character takes a recuperation round after getting the bonus. But none of these latter three (Leaping, Balance, or Landing) requires a Static Action.

Applying this to Balance, then, the character would first take a prep round. The following round, the character would apply the stat and skill rank bonus to the Moving Maneuver to maintain balance. I would have liked to have seen an 'automatically' in the description of Balance here though.
     
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Offline Elrich Maltah

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2022, 11:46:24 AM »
Yes, I would agree with all of that. It's too bad that I feel like we're just sipping brandy and smoking cigars, solving all the world's problems in our own minds without actually having any effect. What I mean by that is that it's so far after all of this was being developed, the window for public opinion is closed, and there's no hope of having anything officially clarified during the lifetime of the product to benefit players as the game was happening in real time. (RMU notwithstanding, of course.)

I'm reminded of one other example, though, that defends the idea that the "skill rank bonus" edits for Adrenal Moves were actually correct, despite the fact that stats were assigned. That example is Maneuvering in Armor.

For MIA, the benefit of taking ranks in the skill is to decrease the maneuvering penalties associated with each armor type. The benefit manifests as a +5 bonus per skill rank, with no diminishing returns, until the minimum penalty is reached, with the resulting penalty being applied to any moving maneuver that is attempted while wearing the armor. The catch here is that MIA has Ag/St attached to it as relevant stats, yet there is never an explicit MIA skill roll made for success of the desired maneuver. Rather, it's always just whatever other skill is being attempted, whether climbing, jumping, riding, etc.

If one were to accept this position as the most likely solution to Adrenal Moves, it would reduce the number of edit failure points along the way to simply being the lack of removing Pr/SD from the equation. Of course, it would also reduce the variability of proficiency in Adrenal skills between characters. And it would be less fun.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2022, 02:17:29 PM »
Yes, that is a good point. Note that the 1989 Character Law (at least; this probably goes back to earlier editions too) states, in the section on Maneuvering in Armor (3.4, p. 47), that we are to 'Use the Agility stat bonus for general maneuvering'. The chart (15.1.4) gives AG as the stat for MIA, or AG/ST if using multiple stats. MIA is thus a special skill that modifies another type of roll, whether a general maneuver roll or a specific skill roll such as Climbing or Swimming, in the same way that Adrenal Defense is a special skill that modifies an attack roll. But yes, they should not have made MIA its own category of skills; they should just have lumped it in with the other special skills.

The language in earlier editions was just unclear and inconsistent at times. Note that the note on moving maneuvers in the original Character Law (5.72) clearly distinguishes 'skill level' from stats. I'm not sure if that helps resolve anything, but it does strongly suggest that the phrase 'skill level bonus' was not meant to include stats.

I think the best thing to do in such cases is just acknowledge that there is some ambiguity at the heart of the rules here, that there probably is no definitive answer to what the RAW say, and to go with what works best for your group.

I think we do know what the RAW say for Strength and Speed; that seems the clearest. The stat bonus should be added to the Static Action.

For Balance, Landing and Leaping, I would say you probably could apply the stat bonus to the length of the fall or the MM for the jump or the MM for the balancing maneuver, or you could not. I agree it is more fun if the stats are applied, so that's what I'd go with personally.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Online jdale

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2022, 09:32:10 PM »
RM2 was always very much a patchwork, a kit from which you could assemble a set of rules. Pete Fenlon said that himself:

Rolemaster was always designed as a toolkit. I never used every Rolemaster rule, chart, or option in my 20+ years of campaigns. I tailored Rolemaster rules to settings, not the other way around. I always ran a setting- and story-specific game. The story—including player stories—drove the narrative. Rules are just tools. If I were to go back and revise Rolemaster and/or MERP, I’d make that clear and craft things in a more clearly modular fashion. I might add more narrative suggestions regarding the use of specific rules.

It let you assemble quite a good set of rules but it was definitely some assembly required, and some inconsistencies were part and parcel of that. Some of those inconsistencies definitely arose from different people understanding the rules differently, and you can see the consequences of that extend through different versions (e.g. whether or not you are supposed to roll an Ambush maneuver or just automatically get the bonus). You can't figure out a unified meaning because the various authors had conflicting ideas about how it worked. It was only with RMSS that an attempt was really made to make it into a coherent set of rules that was playable as written.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2022, 10:09:28 PM »
I definitely think that's true, and that is a great quote from Pete Fenlon.

I was going to make a separate post about Adrenals in RMU, because this discussion has suggested something to me. RMU gives updated forms of Speed and Strength that are close enough to their previous versions as to be pretty similar. It does something different with Adrenal Defense (and doesn't really seem to me to altogether work all that well, but that's a whole different discussion, so I won't discuss that here).

What I do want to talk about is the different approach RMU takes to the movement adrenals. Firstly, it combines them so that you really just need one skill (Adrenal Focus) to get the RMU equivalent of both Balance and Leaping, and RMU also extends this to Brawn skills (I assume this means Fortitude checks), Movement skills (including Climbing, Swimming, Flying, and Running), and Gymnastics (Acrobatics, Contortions, Jumping). This makes the skill much more useful, though it limits the bonus to +25. Stats still make a difference, because they are used for the Absolute Maneuver to get the benefit (and such an Absolute Maneuver is always required).

The one classic Adrenal Move that is lacking though (given that Quickdraw is now a talent, and thus treated separately) is Adrenal Landing. Could perhaps this be added in, whether in RMU or a particular expansion book (nudge nudge wink wink), by specifying that another use of Adrenal Focus is to land, in which case concentration is required the round after the landing rather than before? This would in a sense revive the old Adrenal Landing skill that some players might miss, and add a bit more value to the Adrenal Focus skill.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Majyk

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Re: Using Adrenal Maneuvers
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2022, 01:45:42 AM »
Re: Adrenal Skills cost nothing to use.

Make this a limiting factor by coming up with a shadow-number derived from one’s Exhaustion Points(that nobody ever plays with, LOL!). 
Make each attempt cost 1-2-3 ExPts. so it turns the abilities into a “Usable 20x/day” kind of calculation ahead of time.

It makes Spell Users cheer the finite use of a so-called main power/ability!  ::)

If not, Adrenal Move checks are spammed every round or two.