Author Topic: Dragon "horn" attacks  (Read 937 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Dragon "horn" attacks
« on: February 14, 2022, 11:23:51 AM »
All of the dragons in C&T, along with the lesser drakes and wyverns, have horn attacks. In prepping for my party to meet some wyverns, I was looking at this, and the pictures of the dragons in C&T and anywhere else I could find them. For those pictures of dragons with horns, they point backward on the head and would require a really contorted maneuver to attack in any way that would allow one to stab with them.
Other creatures with horn attacks include bulls, antelope, elk, rhinos, narwhals, walrus, triceratops, unicorn, and minotaur, along with a couple of others. Among those, the horns are forward-pointing and only narwhals and minotaurs get a bite attack - after or instead of, never with the horn attack. These make sense, but backswept horns, not so much.
If you've used the horn attack, how have you visualized it, or described the strike to the players? A back-sweep of the head? The horn on the nose like a rhino, stabbing? Or have you skipped it and possibly given the creature a replacement attack?
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2022, 11:57:46 AM »
  Water buffalo have swept-back horns and use them to attack by bowing their heads. A dragon should have no problem doing the same.
 

  When I was playtesting a RPG back in the 1970s, the D&D players pointed out the feeble melee damage dragons would inflict. Was a dragon's body light and frail like a bird's or more ponderous, like a dinosaur's? If a dragon had mass behind its attacks, a swipe of a claw would send a man flying instead of a meagre slash like a sword.
  In D&D dragon horns weren't even an issue, they had a bite and two claws. Then of course, horns may be purely decorative...
 
  Dragons are portrayed through imagination. Why not have horns like a triceratops? Asian dragons are illustrated to have antlers. 
   
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2022, 11:33:12 PM »
How would a dragon kill something that managed to get on it's back?  Backwards facing horns would be perfect for that.. (just sayin').
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2022, 12:46:12 AM »
How would a dragon kill something that managed to get on it's back?  Backwards facing horns would be perfect for that.. (just sayin').
I would go with "Turn its head on its long neck and breathe on it."
After my post (of course, why read it before?!) I looked at the "Attack patterns for drakes" in C&T. The horn attack never happens with a bite, and is basically an alternative head attack, rather than biting. It also seems that the "horn" attacks actually include two distinct types of attacks. (1) Actual horn attacks, and (2) Stinger attacks for creatures the "Stinger" table is just too meager to accommodate.
The "Attack Patterns" are very reasonable, actually. They do still beg the question of why a drake-type creature would ever opt for the horn attack instead of a bite, since the OBs are better for bite and the tables max out higher for bite, too. In thinking about the whole scenario, I'm surprised there's no tail-sweep that allows striking multiple targets in a prescribed area. For example, up to 3 targets each within 5' of one another with the same attack roll. That would be both more physically reasonable and more dangerous, when fighting a drake.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2022, 11:45:59 AM »
How would a dragon kill something that managed to get on it's back?  Backwards facing horns would be perfect for that.. (just sayin').
  Have you ever seen reptiles fight? Chameleons don't use those horns they have, they bite and they roll around. The same when House geckoes fight (I grew up were every home had a few lizards that ate insects, so were welcome). Imagine climbing atop an elephant limber enough to tumble around and crush a rider.
  Crocodiles and alligators would bite and spin, using its weight to unbalance its prey and break limbs in the process.

  Fighting dragons are problematic, not only due to their mass and power, but mostly due to the fact that they are intelligent, some superior in intelligence than humans. The party has archers? They die first. The hero has a dragon-slaying weapon? No melee -just toss boulders twice his weight at him. My gaming club would have players handle OPFOR (Opposing Force) enemies, from armies to intelligent creatures, who could plan defensively or offensively against the PCs in a double blind scenario. 
  Imagine, if you will, a powerful creature with complete knowledge of the surrounding terrain, capable of attacking and breaking away at leisure, able to channel or lure its enemies into locations most favorable to execute attacks and ambushes, even entrapment. A dragon would literally have centuries to plan and develop his defenses.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2022, 01:32:26 AM »
You guys are both assuming fairly specific dragons.  Who cares what the pictures are like?

There are dragons with forward facing horns.  Heck, just look at that chameleon - but then, as you say, they don't use those horns do they?
Which kinda points out dragons horns just might grow backward for another reason and they don't use them just like those chameleons don't.

Not really being very imaginative.  I mean, we're talking about Dragons.  In RM they will lay out a full mid-level party in two or three rounds.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2022, 04:43:53 PM »
I've always assumed there was some sort of "nose-mounted" horn similar to a rhino to go with the horn attack.  Even with backward sweeping horns, I envisioned the long neck allowed the drake to lower its head to gore another higher flying dragon or aerial beast above it.  The horns don't have to be swept back so far to be useless.    Similarly, the drake could lower its head to ground level, tilt its head 90 degrees and sweep across the ground with the horns leading the way.  It doesn't have to be a nose-to-the-ground, looking at your belly button, run forward like a bull attack to make those horns work against squishy little humans.  That's how we tend to envision horn attacks. 

More to the point, IIR, not every dragon has a horn or a horn attack OB.  We just assumed that if it had a horn OB, it had a horn in a suitable position to be of use for an attack.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2022, 04:52:30 PM »
You guys are both assuming fairly specific dragons.  Who cares what the pictures are like?

There are dragons with forward facing horns.  Heck, just look at that chameleon - but then, as you say, they don't use those horns do they?
Which kinda points out dragons horns just might grow backward for another reason and they don't use them just like those chameleons don't.

Not really being very imaginative.  I mean, we're talking about Dragons.  In RM they will lay out a full mid-level party in two or three rounds.

I'm very visual, and I've learned that my players are, too. If I simply say "it hits you with its horns" I know someone will ask for a more detailed description. For myself mostly, but for them also, I like to be able to describe combat in more detail, so I was pondering the question. None of the answers were satisfying me.

I've always assumed there was some sort of "nose-mounted" horn similar to a rhino to go with the horn attack.  Even with backward sweeping horns, I envisioned the long neck allowed the drake to lower its head to gore another higher flying dragon or aerial beast above it.  The horns don't have to be swept back so far to be useless.    Similarly, the drake could lower its head to ground level, tilt its head 90 degrees and sweep across the ground with the horns leading the way.  It doesn't have to be a nose-to-the-ground, looking at your belly button, run forward like a bull attack to make those horns work against squishy little humans.  That's how we tend to envision horn attacks. 

More to the point, IIR, not every dragon has a horn or a horn attack OB.  We just assumed that if it had a horn OB, it had a horn in a suitable position to be of use for an attack.
Your concept of the dragon using the horns against another dragon or a flying beast is spot-on, I think. Not every attack works in every context, and having horns for aerial or mating combat, or for defense against attacks against a vulnerable area, makes perfect sense.

I'm still leaning towards adding a sort of area sweep attack, perhaps making the HBa attack applicable to multiple adjacent targets. It could even take a minus for each target after the first it hits.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Dragon "horn" attacks
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2022, 11:44:27 PM »
  Dragon physiology is pretty much undefined, so pretty much a GM call. When I play tested a RPG we did have a medical student who compiled notes of monsters from a scientific standpoint with dissection illustrations and how each creature lived and functioned in the wild, including theories on how breath weapons worked.
 
  While discussions on mythical creatures can be interesting, without even theoretical documentation, such as the writings of Herodotus, everything is pretty much speculation.
Players are allowed to speculate on creatures all they want -they may be totally wrong but that's an element of RPGs.
When the Master governs, the people
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