Author Topic: Can animals/monsters Parry?  (Read 1234 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Can animals/monsters Parry?
« on: December 26, 2021, 08:45:05 AM »
Something I have never been clear on, can animals and monsters use their OB to Parry? Since "Parrying" is abstract and can represent other actions beyond interposing a weapon in front of an attack (specifically referring to using the scenery to "parry" attacks), it seems reasonable to me that creature with claws and bite attacks could "fight defensively" and their natural weapons can be as threatening as a sword.

But I have never found a clear answer in any of the RM versions. Is there one,? If so, where?

Offline Hurin

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2021, 11:27:14 AM »
I'm not sure there ever was a clear answer. The primary reference would be RM2 Arms Law, where parrying is defined on p. 12 (Red Band edition) or section 4.3. It states that parrying 'may be thought of in many combat situations as dodging.' That would suggest that yes, animals can parry.

There are some complicating factors though. One is that the rules also specify that to parry melee attacks, one needs a weapon, shield, or 'suitable terrain'. I'm not sure it is ever clarified in Arms Law whether natural weaponry qualifies as a 'weapon or shield'. We might think of cases where we think it should (e.g. an Eog golem's arm), but the general sense I get from Arms Law is that it normally should not (e.g. a Wolf can't parry a sword with its bite).

Then also there are rules on the right column of p. 12 about missile parrying (which incidentally seem to break the rule about parrying enunciated on the left column, namely, that you can only parry the foe you attack). These specify that just having a weapon is not enough to parry missile fire; you need a shield or terrain. These suggest an animal could parry vs. missile behind a tree or some such terrain feature, but also rule out the idea that an animal could missile parry (dodge) without such a terrain feature.

That's just Arms Law, though of course that should be the primary reference, since later books were written often by other authors and their rules sometimes conflict with the core rules.

If it helps, RMU greatly clarifies all this, allowing all creatures to Dodge (a skill separate from parrying), but reducing the effectiveness of Dodging vs. missile fire.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2021, 12:16:50 PM »
I would generally say yes. You might rule an animal has limited ability to parry in some situations, e.g. an animal armed with only claws or teeth vs a pole arm, but I don't think that's necessary.

That said, I tend to make foes not parry, because that puts the decision about how intense a fight should be on the player (since parry from either combatant is basically equivalent), and less parry makes fights faster. Exceptions only for tactical reasons, e.g. I had a pair of animals where one attacked to draw attention while the other snuck behind and stole the party's provisions! In that case the first parried because the intent was really just a bluff and not a true attack.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2021, 10:00:24 AM »
Update: I noticed in the Q+A section of Arms Law (p. 36), the question is asked: 'Can Martial Artists parry weapon attacks?' The answer is yes, because parrying is just a measure of how defensively a combatant is fighting. They say in these cases, the martial artist just 'dodges more that round or blocks the arm that wields the weapon.' I don't see any indication that parry is reduced when using MA Strikes or Sweeps skill to parry.

This doesn't specify whether animals/monsters can do the same -- 'martial artists' has a pretty specific meaning in Arms Law, and it is doubtful that most animals/monsters would qualify as such. But I thought it was interesting to note. Clearly, RM2 players did debate this question a fair bit back in the day, which is why I presume they gave a specific answer to it in the core rules.
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2021, 02:25:42 PM »
The parry rules are abstract, though.  Just like AC in D&D is abstract.  I think animals parrying attacks would be up to the GM in all cases.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2021, 03:37:35 PM »
In my opinion it depends on the animals in-game intelligence level and experience based on my own interpretation for that animal in that setting.

Let's just take dogs as the example.  Some are far more intelligent than others and the less intelligent ones might just charge in in a rage (because they've been trained as attack dogs) while others might feel you out for an opening and actively avoid attacks (livestock guardian and herding dogs) while wild animals (higher self-preservation instinct) like wolfs, hyenas, etc. will be more careful, hunting in packs, not risking their lives for a meal, etc.

I've got a larger dog (fairly ancient breed from Turkey) that is known for being thoughtful about when they attack and also being strategic if it comes to it.  When they do charge they'll shoulder bash their target (wolf or bear) in an initial attempt to knock it down while many other dogs would just immediately go for the throat.  So even within domestic dogs they'll be a large variation depending on intelligence level and training.  You could train dogs to fight a sword and shield warrior, causing them to be more mindful of the sword.

Basically, I'd consider the creatures intelligence level, developmental history and personal experience with what they are faced with and decide from there.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2021, 09:18:22 PM »
I've been going back through my older books and then forward into RMSS, because I thought there was something that explicitly said creatures don't parry, but their DBs reflect their natural tendency to dodge. I can't find it, though.

I have never allowed non-humanoids to parry, and I don't think I would. The premise of parrying in RM2 is that an individual has a weapon that they have learned to use in combat, and that the weapon has some level of tactical value for blocking strikes from an enemy's attack. If you look at the rules for parrying, it's pretty clear that parrying is more than just re-adjusting one's focus from attack to defense. One's skill with their weapon is crucial, as it differentiates a parry from just using a weapon as a shield.
Presumably the original rule-makers were very aware that they had put all of the rules in place for parrying, and could have made similar rules for creatures that don't use weapons. But they didn't. Instead, the creatures get a DB that reflects their natural speed, and modifiers for flee/evade and charge/lunge (although how those modifiers are intended to be used is NEVER explained! Grr.) The lack of any reference at all to parrying for unarmed creatures is a contrast that says a lot.
In my mind, I see three (four?) specific types of defense:
  • Natural defense based on ability to dodge and move out of the way (QU-based DB, for both humanoids and creatures)
    Practiced evasion (Adrenal Defense, comes with its own limitations and restrictions)
    Unpracticed blocking (weapon or other item as shield, flat item-bonus)
    Practiced defense with a weapon (parrying)

As one last point to support my case, consider the shrew. I use them in demo combat for new players, to point out how deadly RM can be. A shrew is AT(DB) 11(70). A mole, similar in size, is just 1(30), as is a rat. The description refers to a shrew's "extremely tough skeleton," which is presumably the basis for AT 11 instead of AT 1. But that DB has to represent its natural speed, "hyperactive existence," and evasiveness, and how readily it evades being struck. Allow it to parry with (all or part of) its 45 OB and that sucker's going to kill your party.
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Online MisterK

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2021, 02:03:52 AM »
Allow it to parry with (all or part of) its 45 OB and that sucker's going to kill your party.
Actually, it won't, because it will not be able to attack efficiently.

But hey, 70 natural DB and 45 OB against a group of level 1 characters ? Parry or not, they're going to hurt if they don't use a bit of cunning of their own.

My problem with the flexibility to parry for opponents is more practical : it increases the workload for the GM, and the extra detail and flexibility is only needed in climatic cases. For most other cases, using a template and not deviating from it is more than enough (the opponents are either "aggressive" - only use their natural DB in defense and full OB in offense, "tentative" - half OB used for defense and half for offense, or "defensive" - full OB used on defense, none for attack). The template used depends on the opponent psychology and the situation.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2021, 04:47:01 PM »
  Parrying takes some cognizance on the part of the defender. Animal intelligence has no concept of martial arts (which is any codified attack/defense system, from boxing to leading armies). From watching vids of animals fighting you will note, if at all, they avoid attacks by dodging, ducking or running away.
  A parry is a move to block or deflect an attack in order to stop, interrupt, or otherwise reduce its effectiveness. That takes a forethought that animals aren't really capable of.

  Monsters capable of using weapons might be able to parry. A monster that uses a shield should understand the concept of at least blocking an incoming attack. I'd say low human-level intelligence would be a minimal threshold on parries.
   
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2021, 05:02:21 PM »
Simple answer, yes.  My cat parries with its paws until it gets pissed off enough and it goes into attack mode.  There is a clear, distinct difference between "ugh, leave me alone, damn it" and "I SAID LEAVE ME ALONE!"  The little kitten eventually learned what that line was and stopped harassing the older cat.

My dogs are the same way.  The younger dog wanted to play more and the older one would try to duck and dodge and deflect with his muzzle until he got pissed off and the "deflect" with the muzzle became "bite" with the muzzle to pin the younger dog, not so much to draw blood, but to pin the younger dog with his mouth.  Naturally, I've seen both dogs go into attack mode when there is a squirrel or rabbit in the yard.

Even a skunk parries until it's pissed off enough to spray its attacker.  It's a matter of not putting your full, wholehearted effort in to an attack and keeping something back so you can still possibly move or to not injure your opponent too much,

In Martial Arts, a parry (weapon or empty handed) can be as simple as having a hand out in front of you in the way of your opponent.  "Keep your hands up" is very much a simple form of a parry.  The attacker now has to get around your hands to punch you in the nose.

More intelligent creatures will naturally have the ability to parry more effectively and with weapons (orcs, ogres, etc.)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2021, 11:52:33 PM »
All my dogs know what the 'nose flick' is.  You know how you flick a something across the table with your thumb and middle finger.

I've had dogs that, when I do that... 1) Fall for it every time. 2) Turn their head to avoid it. 3) Smack my hand out of the way with their front paw/leg. 4) Grab my hand with their mouth.

I'd argue the third is a parry.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2021, 04:57:58 AM »

I'd argue the third is a parry.

Absolutely.  It's pretty impressive to watch.  When the older dog has had enough of his sister's harassment, he bumps her head away with his nose then grabs her collar and uses one paw to keep her from hitting him with her paw.
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Offline netbat

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2021, 02:09:07 PM »
In the martial arts I am familiar with(fencing and Aikido), parrying is predominantly
 using the weapon/body to make sure the attack is offline and not a threat. That can be moving the attacking weapon out of line, moving your body out of the way, or making the opponent flinch or otherwise pull the attack. There is no reason animals can't do the second and third. If you ever watch a nature show of pack predators taking on herd animals, it is pretty obvious one will attack with full parry to draw the herd animals full parry so another packmate can go for the full attack. The threat of an attack like a stop-thrust or feint is as much a part of parry  as attempting to deflect a weapon. (and if your opponent is overcommitted, it just might hit!)
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 02:32:52 PM »
Yes, and remember too in the early versions of RM, they specifically said that parrying can be thought of as dodging.

Where they complicated matters was in specifying that to parry, you needed a weapon, shield, or 'suitable terrain'. I think RMU solves that issue well by specifying that if you don't have a weapon or shield, you can just dodge (using the Running skill).
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Can animals/monsters Parry?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2022, 04:19:50 PM »
I think my position on this boils down to the idea that the animals' DB already incorporates their dodging. As noted in the dog & cat examples, young animals learn this quickly. If the animal is going to try extra hard, use the flee/evade bonus - finally giving it a purpose, and saving the GM the work of "how much should the capybara parry this round? Hmm...he parried 20 last round and didn't get hit, maybe just 10 this round..."
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