Topic: When to apply "lack of skill penalties" for Moving Manoeuvres?

[C.Tozer]

Hi guys

A question I have been musing on for a while is how and when to apply penalties for not having a particular skill when it comes to Moving Manoeuvres. And also, how and when to use the penalty for moving in armor too.

QUESTIONS:

• How do you handle skills like Jumping and Climbing if a character is not skilled?
  How do you deal with the somewhat tedious “you climb a bit more” type results for Moving Manoeuvres which aren’t “All or nothing”?
  What are your thoughts in terms of characters falling and taking damage?
  How do you handle your Moving Manoeuvre Failures and what do you think of how I run them?
  What do you think of ICE example and how it applies (or doesn’t here)?
  

Look forward to any thoughts you may have.

Using an example from RM2/RM Classic p. 38 Arms Law the following is written:

“Example: Suppose a combatant attempts to leap 15’ over a chasm 11’ wide. The GM assigns the leap a degree of difficulty of “Medium.” If the combatant does not cancel his maneuver, his roll will be modified by -10 for wearing a chain shirt (AT 13; see Table 02-01), by +25 for an excellent Agility, and by -10 for being wounded (over 25% of hits). He rolls a 91 for a net maneuver roll of 96 (91 -10 + 25 -10). Cross-indexing on the Maneuver/Movement Table, we get a result of “80”. This means that the combatant has leaped 12’ (15’ x 80%) and therefore has crossed the chasm safely.
If this maneuver had been to throw a rope around a rock on the other side of the chasm and the same result had been obtained, then a second dice roll would have been required. If the second roll (unmodified) was 80 or less, then the rope throw would be successful; otherwise, it would fail.”

So, the above all makes sense/is all fine (though as an aside I would rule the jump as an “All or nothing attempt” – ie the character would needed to have rolled 80% or under to succeed, but hey that’s just me).

What I am puzzled about is when skills like Jumping, tumbling etc (from RM Companion II) are include in the game as they are in mine.
If those skills were being used in the game with the chasm example above would the character be penalised (-25 for no skill ranks) for not having the Jumping skill “Jumping (RM Companion II p.31) “Bonus for jumping manoeuvres either running or from a standing position.”
I’d be curious as to what people think of the following scenario below as it applies to this question please:

Character A
-   No climbing or jumping skill
-   +10 Agility Bonus
-   Wearing Chain Hauberk Armor (AT16). Fulling trained with a -25 Minimum Manoeuvre Penalty

Character B
-   No Climbing skill
-   +56 Jumping skill
-   +15 Agility Bonus
-   Wearing Rigid Leather Breastplate (AT9). Partially trained with a -10 Minimum Manoeuvre Penalty

The two characters are faced with firstly a 20-foot rough (Medium Manoeuvre) easy to climb wall and then 30 foot on from reaching the have to making a running jump over a 13-foot-wide broken bridge (Very Hard Manoeuvre) with a 40’ drop below it.

Am I correct in thinking that to climb the wall:

Character A would have -40 to this climbing attempt based on:
-25 for no Climbing skill
-+10 Agility Bonus
--25 for wearing Chain Hauberk Armor (AT16) (Fully trained)

Character A rolls a 91 (91-40 = 51, or 30% in the Medium Manoeuvre column) and climbs 3’ of the first 10’ (assuming 10’ a round as per RM climbing rules). After 6 more rolls (none of which resulted in a failure/fumble) Character A makes it to the top.

While this is realistic (someone in a Chain Hauberk is likely going to take a while to climb a 20’ wall) rolling around 6 times doesn’t make for particularly interesting roleplaying … Any thoughts/what do you do?

Character B would have -20 to this climbing attempt based on:
-   -25 for no Climbing skill
-   +15 Agility Bonus
-   -10 for wearing Rigid Leather Breastplate (AT9) (Partially trained)

Character B rolls an 89 (89-20 = 69, or 50% in the Medium Manoeuvre column) and climbs 5’ of the first 10’ (assuming 10’ a round as per RM climbing rules). After 4 more rolls (none of which resulted in a failure/fumble) Character B also makes it to the top.

And am I correct in thinking that to jump over the broken bridge:

Character A would have -40 to this running jump attempt based on:
-   -25 for no Jumping skill
-   +10 Agility Bonus
-   -25 for wearing Chain Hauberk Armor (AT16) (Fully trained)

Character A rolls a 28 (28-40 = -12, which results in the following “Fall Down +5 Hits. You are out of action for 3 rounds”).
How would other GMs read that result? Has Character A simply tripped in his/her run up to the jump? Should the GM check and see if there is a chance of Character A falling the 40’ off the broken bridge? If so, how would you handle this?

How I handle it is with Character B  …

Also, in the ICE example above, with the combatant attempting to leap 15’ over a chasm 11’ wide, the no penalty for not having a Jumping/Acrobatic type skill was given. Rather just an Agility bonus. Are we to assume that the GM in that scenario didn’t use secondary skills like jump?

Character B would have +46 to this running jump attempt based on:
-   +56 Jumping skill
-   -10 for wearing Rigid Leather Breastplate (AT9) (Partially trained)

Character B’s +15 Agility Bonus wouldn’t be added to the jumping attempt as its already added into the Jumping skill correct?
Character B rolls a 61 (61+46 = 107, or 70% in the Very Hard Manoeuvre column). As mentioned above I make such attempts an “all or nothing” roll meaning that Character B would need to roll 70 or under to have succeed in leaping the 13-foot-wide gap in the broken bridge.
In this case Character B rolls an 82 which means a failure.

I then get the player to roll on the Moving Manoeuvre Failure Table (FT-4 From MERP if I recall).
If that table results in a fall I will typically see if they fall down the 40’ drop below the broken bridge (after one last desperate Manoeuvre to try to grab something)

QUESTIONS:
How do you handle skills like Jumping and Climbing if a character is not skilled?
How do you deal with the somewhat tedious “you climb a bit more” type results for Moving Manoeuvres which aren’t “All or nothing”?
What are your thoughts in terms of characters falling and taking damage?
How do you handle your Moving Manoeuvre Failures and what do you think of how I run them?
What do you think of ICE example and how it applies (or doesn’t here)?

What do you think?

[Aspire2Hope]

That is a lot of considerations Chris.  My simple rule of thumb for MM for speed in play. Climbing or any MM where you won't fall roll it once and tell the player they get to the top in x rounds. Well unless we are playing the bit where you build up the tension, but as most of my adventurers rope up...
Jumping and leaping I don't use the skill so can't comment on that except to say that if you consider it as the techniques a long jumper would use to gain distance then that might help with working out what penalty to apply. I'd say additional equipment, armour, ground, wind conditions are all major factors before you get to how far.
My simple response to jumps is that you can comfortably jump (unburdened) your height. The world record is just shy of 30ft (8m and something) and has hovered around that for around 50 years or more. We aren't jumping much further than that with a fair wind and ideal conditions. After I explain that to a group of players they stick to jumping no more than twice their body height carrying very little and then using ropes to haul the kit over or finding the bridge down the valley.

[Peter R]

I would use the same method, roll once for the climb and use the result to describe how long the entire climb took.

For the jumps I don't use those skills.

[Spectre771]

Agreed, that is a lot of depth and detail for your question.  Rather than dig into each detail, we have a simple rule. 

If you don't have the skill it's -50 to try it.  There are a handful of skills listed in RMC-VI (pg. 32) where you are not allowed to attempt the skill at all unless yo have at least a token 1-rank in it.  We use that rule too.  Some of those skills are Spell Lists, Runes, Ambush, Magical Languages, Advanced Math, etc.  Oddly.... Surgery is not listed there.  Good luck with that!

We use the Armour MM penalty and apply it to Quickness Penalty, initiative, DB, etc., the items listed in AL&CL.  Any skills that fall under the Athletic Skills Category receive the Armour MM penalty if there is one left over after the PC has purchased Maneuver in Armour.  Most of my players opt for armours without a MM penalty or purchase enough Maneuver in Armour to offset the penalty.

Another option the players like is rolling on the Special Items Category with their background options and hoping for a +5, +10 magic item of choice.  They'll usually choose non-encumbering armour or armour that encumbers as a lower armour rating.

[brole]

I'll offer some quick notes on how I handle these type of jump manoeuvres although it looks like you run them just fine.
For jumping I use the extention to the alternative static action table in companion II. This assigns the difficulty based on the distance to jump.
Then I roll on the MM table but first determine what percent is success and at what percent partial success (the NPC makes the other side of the bridge but is hanging on by their arms). Less than partial success is a failure to make the distance so the NPC falls resolving on the Fall table.
As applicable AD leaping will help the jump and AD landing will soften a fall.
I allow a seperate roll for the run up, a faster pace allowing a greater jump distance. Run is normal running jump distance as per chart , each pace over this gives extra distance.
For no skill I allow attempts at the normal -25 for no skill ranks if it is a move that a character could have experienced. E.G. jumping is something a character would feasibly have done despite no skill rank, however pole vaulting not so.
For the climbing I do the same a Peter R posted here, just roll once for each move and calculate the time based on the percent result. A fail will need to determine at what height the fall is. Running out of exhaustion points due to dismal climb pace could result in a fall from the wall too.

[Aspire2Hope]

I'll offer some quick notes on how I handle these type of jump manoeuvres although it looks like you run them just fine.
For jumping I use the extention to the alternative static action table in companion II. This assigns the difficulty based on the distance to jump.
Then I roll on the MM table but first determine what percent is success and at what percent partial success (the NPC makes the other side of the bridge but is hanging on by their arms). Less than partial success is a failure to make the distance so the NPC falls resolving on the Fall table.
As applicable AD leaping will help the jump and AD landing will soften a fall.
I allow a seperate roll for the run up, a faster pace allowing a greater jump distance. Run is normal running jump distance as per chart , each pace over this gives extra distance.
For no skill I allow attempts at the normal -25 for no skill ranks if it is a move that a character could have experienced. E.G. jumping is something a character would feasibly have done despite no skill rank, however pole vaulting not so.
For the climbing I do the same a Peter R posted here, just roll once for each move and calculate the time based on the percent result. A fail will need to determine at what height the fall is. Running out of exhaustion points due to dismal climb pace could result in a fall from the wall too.

I like the idea of adding a run up roll. If it is a success then you get increased distance; if not then either hope and jump, or abort with a new MM to stop sliding over the edge. Thanks also for the reminder about companion II and using SM results for a jump.

[brole]

Thanks also for the reminder about companion II and using SM results for a jump.

I'm glad I could help.

[Spectre771]

For the MM tables/penalties, we handle it a little differently than standard.

Choose the appropriate difficulty
Roll +/- the bonuses and penalties
Cross reference the chart
If the result is a numerical value, example: 70  There is a 70% chance the PC succeeded in the the MM
The player rolls D100 UM, if the result is 1-70, the player succeeds, 71+ is failure

The rationale being this: if the player only jumps 70% of a 10' gap, he's still 3' short and fails.  Since it's pass/fail, we give the player that 70% chance to make it.

[Majyk]

Yup, great minds think alike.
I always liked the “second chance” aspect of not making something completely and dangling by a fingernail if it wasn’t 100% at first blush.
After that, well...(insert Wilhelm Scream here).

example: 70  There is a 70% chance the PC succeeded in the the MM
The player rolls D100 UM, if the result is 1-70, the player succeeds, 71+ is failure
The rationale being this: if the player only jumps 70% of a 10' gap, he's still 3' short and fails.  Since it's pass/fail, we give the player that 70% chance to make it.