Topic: Combat Companion question

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In the "Combat Companion", for the Warrior's Essence spell list p19, about the Change Size XXX spells, does the increase apply to the height or the mass? The description says "able to alter his size/mass (usually height and weight)", implying both... except that applying it to either makes it completely different! The way I read it, it may mean the increase applies to size and mass increase accordingly, or it applies to mass and size increases accordingly.

My problem is the relative power of the list, compared to existing enlarging spells. Let's compare these spells with the similar ones from SL, Living Change.
If, in the CC, the increase applies to mass, the spells are very weak, since at level 25, a caster achieves a +90% mass increase, something a 9th level caster of Living Change can achieve.
OTOH, it the increase applies to size, the spells are incredibly powerful!!! At level 25, a caster achieves a +90% size increase, thus a +585.9% mass increase, something a caster of Living Change can only achieve starting level 59!!!

So... whoever wrote these spells, if you're reading the forums, what were your ideas about them? What about GMs from the forums? How do you use them?

[Marc R]

It's a semi list, so I'd be inclined to take the weaker view.

[providence13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allometry

Allometry gets me thinking crazy thoughts. If Size is increased and not mass, you're going to take a worse crit from Impact/Fall/Crush/Bash, at least.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In the "Combat Companion", for the Warrior's Essence spell list p19, about the Change Size XXX spells, does the increase apply to the height or the mass? The description says "able to alter his size/mass (usually height and weight)", implying both... except that applying it to either makes it completely different! The way I read it, it may mean the increase applies to size and mass increase accordingly, or it applies to mass and size increases accordingly.

My problem is the relative power of the list, compared to existing enlarging spells. Let's compare these spells with the similar ones from SL, Living Change.
If, in the CC, the increase applies to mass, the spells are very weak, since at level 25, a caster achieves a +90% mass increase, something a 9th level caster of Living Change can achieve.
OTOH, it the increase applies to size, the spells are incredibly powerful!!! At level 25, a caster achieves a +90% size increase, thus a +585.9% mass increase, something a caster of Living Change can only achieve starting level 59!!!

So... whoever wrote these spells, if you're reading the forums, what were your ideas about them? What about GMs from the forums? How do you use them?

The spells on the Warrior's Essence list (a spell caster's Base List) were based upon those from the Living Change list (a Closed Essence list). In fact, if you look at the 4th level spell on Warrior's Essence against the 2nd level spell from Living change, you will notice that the wording is almost identical.

As such, the spells were meant to work in a similar manner. Therefore, I would say that it depends upon how you rule on the Living Change spells.

However, MY intention was that it increased BOTH height and weight (i.e. size/mass) by the same percentage amount. So, if we stipulate a 90% increase, we get the following:

A character who is 72 inches (6') tall and weight 280 lbs would/could with the 90% increase change to being  136.8 inches (11' 4") tall (72 x 1.9 = 136. and weighing 532 lbs (i.e. 280 x 1.9 = 532)

I have no idea where you 585.9% mass increase, but I think that perhaps you were overthinking things...

[Kristen Mork]

If you increase the linear dimension of an object (such as a person) by x N (e.g., x 1.5), you increase the volume of the object by x N³ (e.g., x 3.375)---assuming that all three dimensions are increased simultaneously.  If the density of the object remains constant, then the mass of the object also increases by x N³.

So, a +90% size increase (or, x 1.9) is equivalent to +585.9% mass increase (or x 1.9³ = x 6.859).

I appreciate the simplicity of the RAW, but it flies in the face of "realism."  To preserve the RAW, you have to either assume a) a change in density or b) stretching the target such that width and depth don't increase, but height does (which would look quite grotesque!).

[Marc R]

I concur. . .and to offer a simple example for those who find Peter's example counter intuitive:

a 1' x 1' x 1' cube of material is 1 cu ft and weighs 10 pounds.

doubling its size

a 2' x 2' x 2' cube of the same material is 8 cu ft and weighs 80 pounds.

Which follows the same logic that my son, at 36" and the same body form as me, weighs in at 36 pounds, while at 72" I weigh in at over 200 pounds. . .I'm twice as tall as he is, but close to seven times the mass.

[Nders]

The thing is that the warrior essence spells also change your melee damage parameters by the same percentage as you change size. I know what Razyr just said he meant but we always read it as mass increase to explain the additional weight on blows.

[Cormac Doyle]

I can't make an official ruling, and since my books are not on-hand, the quotes below are paraphrased ... however, please do read:

Firstly ... for a "Giant"/Troll/Titan to be 12' tall (or larger), the biophysical properties of such a construct would mean that they would not simply be double the weight of a 6' fall human. I'm sure we can all agree to that?

Secondly ... for the average child 3' tall, they will NOT simply be half the weight of their 6' tall human father ... We can all understand that too?

But the height-to-weight differential is not a linear multiplier ...

So, the simplest mechanical statement would be: "The spell allows the caster to vary their height. Weight/Mass will scale proportionately"

HOWEVER ... that opens a whole other can of worms ...
1. Does the character's HITS increase?
2. Does the character's Crit status change?
 - Do they become tiny? If so - at what point?
 - Do they become Large/Super-Large/Huge? If so - at what point?
3. Does the damage DEALT by the character change (increase/decrease)?

The current iterations of RM have no way of answering any of those questions in a consistent or structured manner. The rules for "Change" type spells have always been to use whay is mechanically simplest ...

"The character gains no statistical benefit from changes in height/mass/weight other than those directly implied such as pace or reach or the ability to run under/step over obstacles. Changes to CRIT status, Hits, damage multipliers or the like fall outside the scope of these spells"

If you want a spell that double's your strength bonus - use the Monk spells. Change form spells do not allow that.

Alternately - use the "Animal Form/Beast Form/Mystical Beast Form" spells ... if you change your form to that of a Shark or a Giant, you gain "All benefits of that form" - including stat bonuses, crit reductions, etc. The higher level variants allow you to gain the "mystical" abilities also.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Firstly ... for a "Giant"/Troll/Titan to be 12' tall (or larger), the biophysical properties of such a construct would mean that they would not simply be double the weight of a 6' fall human. I'm sure we can all agree to that?

One could argue, however, that neither a giant, a troll, nor a titan has actually the same allometry (thus density) than a human being.

So, the simplest mechanical statement would be: "The spell allows the caster to vary their height. Weight/Mass will scale proportionately"

As I stated in my initial post, the problem is that the spells in Living Change work the other way: they allow the caster to vary his mass, his height scaling proportionally. Using it the same way with the Warrior's Essence spells is fine, except it makes the spells kind of weak.

HOWEVER ... that opens a whole other can of worms ...
1. Does the character's HITS increase?
2. Does the character's Crit status change?
 - Do they become tiny? If so - at what point?
 - Do they become Large/Super-Large/Huge? If so - at what point?
3. Does the damage DEALT by the character change (increase/decrease)?

Well, the original spells in Living Change makes it hard for the size increase to have actual "size class" change, as it's +10%/lvl. In order for a human being (size M) to change to a L size, you'd need to about double his height, which is a +700% mass increase, for what you'd need to be a level 70... So I'd say that the size increase is negligibly enough for most cases to rule out 1 and 2. As for 3, the Warrior's Essence spells actually increase the damage inflicted, but it could be easily argued that one doesn't gain enough proficiency in one's newfound size to be able to fully efficiently apply the newfound strength in combat applications. Outside of combat purpose, an increase in mass increases strength-related matters anyway (such as maximum weight carried or maximum weight lift, since these depend on mass).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The thing to remember above all, IMO - Rolemaster is simply a game. And that no game containing "magic" can ever be considered to be "realistic" and the MAIN GOAL of a game is to have fun.

Anyways, all I can say is what my original intention was.

It is up to those who now run things to make official rulings on how it should be handled.

[Marc R]

"Living Change" is a closed list, and IMO thus roughly should be equal in power to a Semi base list. . .

So the problem here seems to be that the CC spells are out of pattern, due to a misunderstanding of the baseline for the relationship between size and mass that Living Change established in SL.

i.e. the CC spells are off, not Living change, and thus the fix should be made on that side.

Books not handy, can someone post up the levels and percentages of the various Change Size spells, and I'll triage with an aim toward an errata suggestion we can chew on.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In the Living Change spells:
1. Up to -50% of caster's mass (self spell),
2. Up to +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
7. Up to -10% of caster's mass/lvl (to a minimum of -90% of target's mass since it has a target),
10. Up to +10% of caster's mass/lvl (self spell).

In the Warrior's Essence spells:
4. Up to -25% or +25% of caster's attribute (self spell),
8. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's attribute (self spell),
14. Up to -75% or +75% of caster's attribute (self spell),
25. Up to -90% or +90% of caster's attribute (self spell).

"Attribute" is either mass or height...

[Marc R]

OK, first step, change the units to match:

In the Living Change spells:
1. Up to -50% of caster's mass (self spell),
2. Up to +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
7. Up to -10% of caster's mass/lvl (to a minimum of -90% of target's mass since it has a target),
10. Up to +10% of caster's mass/lvl (self spell).

In the Warrior's Essence spells:
4. Up to -25% or +25% of caster's mass (self spell),
8. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
14. Up to -75% or +75% of caster's mass (self spell),
25. Up to -90% or +90% of caster's mass (self spell).

The 4th level spell is weaker than the 1/2 level spells, but allows +/- on one spell, saving a slot, so seems fine.

The 8th level spell is way over the 1/2 level spells it replaces, but also allows 1 spell to take the place of two. This may be too low powered.

The 14th and 25th level spells are way out of whack.

adjusting to the /level basis:

In the Warrior's Essence spells:
4. Up to -25% or +25% of caster's mass (self spell),
8. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
14. Up to +/- 10%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell),
25. Up to +/- 10%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell).

This brings the 14th level spell closer to making sense, again on the basis that it allows +/- but is combined into one higher level spell, but now 14 and 25 are identical.

Perhaps boost 25:

In the Warrior's Essence spells:
4. Up to -25% or +25% of caster's mass (self spell),
8. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
14. Up to +/- 10%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell),
25. Up to +/- 20%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell).

Thus, living change 10th, cast at 14th level, would allow the same ability as the 14th Warrior's Essence, but cost 4 less. (in exchange, the 14th level version is +/- in one spell).

and

Living change 10th, cast at 25th level, would allow half the capability of the 25th Warrior's essence, but cost 15 less. Thus the 25th level spell does indeed allow something comparable, but definitely stronger, than the 10th level spell on the other list.

Does that last version seem sensible, any comments or problems?

(It might be a good idea to make the 4th level +/-50 and the 8th level +/-75 to bring those into balance).

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm sold on:

4. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
8. Up to -75% or +75% of caster's mass (self spell),
14. Up to +/- 10%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell, minimum of -90%),
25. Up to +/- 20%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell, minimum of -95%).

I put "-95%" for the level 25 spell because it roughly allows twice the final mass as an increase (compared to the level 14 spell), so I gave it half the final mass as a decrease.

(For people interested, the size increases/decreases would be:
4. Size x 0.794 to x 1.145,
8. Size x 0.63 to x 1.205,
14. Size x 0.464 to x ³√(1+(lvl/10)),
25. Size x 0.368 to x ³√(1+(lvl/5)).)

Thanks, Marc~

[Marc R]

OK, Errata suggestion for Combat Companion "Warriors Essence":

4. Up to -50% or +50% of caster's mass (self spell),
8. Up to -75% or +75% of caster's mass (self spell),
14. Up to +/- 10%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell, minimum of -90%),
25. Up to +/- 20%/lvl of caster's mass (self spell, minimum of -95%).

Anyone with objections or something they'd suggest changing, do so before I move this to the Errata page:

[markc]

 I like the changes and I would also like to see the height notes included if possible.
MDC

[Cormac Doyle]

Mark ... rolemaster already has a bad reputatuion for maths (and that's just because we encourage people to add/subract numbers with 2 digits) ... I shudder to think what the detractors would say to a formula of "Size x 0.368 to x ³√(1+(lvl/5))" (and that is setting aside the consideration that this only confirms the max value ...

6' tall individual casts level 25 spell and increases their MASS by +20%/lvl (25*0.2 = 5)- a factor of 5

So to calculate the height increase we look at ...

6 x 0.368 to x ³√(1+(5)). = 6 x 0.368 x ³√6 = 2.208 x ³√6 = 4.0 ...

so at the end of that - we calculate that the person grows by 4' (ending up at 10' tall)

Thus the 6', 180 lb individual now weighs in as a 10', 900 lb hulk.

For you or I, it makes sense ... but I doubt I'd want to do it in a game. In fact - most people are looking to increase/decrease tehir height, and then worry about their mass as a secondary effect!

[Kristen Mork]

I agree with Cormac.  I've always had size changes (e.g., +25%) apply to height, and mass increased accordingly.  Given that there's little benefit to having added mass, it's never been a problem.

[markc]

Cormac Doyle and Peter Mork;
 I was thinking purely from the stand point that someone could make an Excel chart or spread sheet with the formulas given. But maybe that might be a better article for The Guild Companion to do.
MDC


BTW, I do agree that the math would turn some off (ok most) but just saying something like here is the real formula's for creating the info you need might help one person in the group get the info the rest could use.
MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

6 x 0.368 to x ³√(1+(5)). = 6 x 0.368 x ³√6 = 2.208 x ³√6 = 4.0 ...

Errrr, the "to" was to separate the multipliers for the "-95%" and the "+/- 20%/lvl". In your case, the result is: 6 x ³√(6) = 10.9, so the final height is 10.9 ft.

For you or I, it makes sense ... but I doubt I'd want to do it in a game. In fact - most people are looking to increase/decrease tehir height, and then worry about their mass as a secondary effect!

The original SL list, Living Change clearly states that it works on the mass, though. In fact, all spells dealing with changing form are expressed according to mass change, not size change.

Also, I'm baffled about how everyone always talks about how RM should be "realistic" and discuss endlessly about matters such as how accurate the initiative system should be whilst taking into account weapon length, distance between two opponents, and the nature of the weapons themselves, a discussion that can but be subjective and speculative at best, yet shudders about applying actual and correct mathematics to actual physical considerations.