Topic: Illusion question for RM -- any version

[dutch206]

, but the OP question of a bonfire doesn't seem to work. . .at best the bonfire would be body temperature warm, if the GM decided to be nice, it wouldn't throw off radiant heat as a fire would. . . .

Speaking as the OP, I said campfire not bonfire.

[pastaav]

To a degree, it should work, but only in the sense that a phantasm of a person shouldn't feel like a room temperature corpse to the touch,

I still don't understand why this should be allowed to be fixed by a feel for an illusion. That the room tempered body will reveal that the phantasm as a illusion if the illusionist is stupid enough to allow anyone to make prolonged contact makes it harder for the illusionist, but that is just tough luck.

There is absolutely no wordings in the spell lists that suggest that illusionist has any spell at all that allow them to mixture with the temperature of any object. I can't see why they then should be given free ability to change the temperature of their illusion.

Of course you might have a setting when you want even more powerful illusions and give the illusionist this as option. The counter argument to adding such to a setting would be that there are lots of spells that have limitations that make them harder to use and Illusionist is very much not one of the weaker spell casters that need to be boosted. I say keep the limitation and make it up to the caster to deal with tricking people with their illusion despite the limitations.

The spells are intended to make things so convincing they could fool you, so shouldn't necessarily be able to detect illusions/phantasms because they are always room temperature, so as GM you could say that "Feel" elements include appropriate temperature elements. . . .but the spells also specifically inflict martial arts damage regardless of what they look like when used to attack, so they cannot be burning hot or freezing cold, at best, if the GM decides it works that way, merely warm or cool to the touch as is appropriate to make the illusion/phantasm seem real.

That is provided it possible at all for the illusionist to generate energy to change the temperature. To me the total lack of spells for the illusionst to change temperature is very much a play balance aspect just like it is play balance aspect that the illusionst can only make martial arts damage. I mean...there are no logical reason why the illusionist should not be able to make illusionary katanas that really cut, are there?

If the illusionist should be given the option fool around with the temperature than I think it should be given like a separate spells just like the Light Molding spell list to keep the logic of the Illusionist spell list untouched..

[Marc R]

I do find it amusing to think that campfire might not work, but hot tub might.

The image of a FRPG party just out of the dungeon in a frosty wilderness hanging out in a hottub in the middle of nowhere talking about what to do next.

Pastaav, you have no problem with the illusionist creating detailed replicas of physical objects out of nothing, but you object to the idea that they could feel warm or cool? If you can "Generate the energy" to create physical constructs from nothing, being able to heat or cool small amounts seems almost insignifigant in comparrison. As I said above, it isn't said one way or the other, I'd be hard pressed to argue vs a GM call one way or the other. . .one of those points where games might vary.

[Emaughan]

Illusionist are users of essence - which is tightly tied with the use of elemental power.  In my game Illusionist are masters at doing great things with small ammounts of elemental essence.  Visual illusions are created using elemental light.  Sound illusions with small ammounts of elemental air, and in the example above - a small ammount of elemental fire.

So sure - adding heat would warm a party - but not be near the magnitude of elemental energy that a magician or elementalist can summon up.

[pastaav]

Pastaav, you have no problem with the illusionist creating detailed replicas of physical objects out of nothing, but you object to the idea that they could feel warm or cool? If you can "Generate the energy" to create physical constructs from nothing, being able to heat or cool small amounts seems almost insignifigant in comparrison.

I would have a problem if physical objects really was created out of nothing. On the other hand that is not the case...the illusionist spells can mimic the real thing powered by magic, but they are not the real thing.

What is an phantasm with visual aspects?...without an feel there must be magic that make the photons bounce, right? The crucial problem here is that heat radiation is also photons, it beats me how can anyone with a straight face argue that an illusion is able to radiate heat, but not visible light (the existence of Light Molding pretty much proves extra spells are needed to generate light).

Turning to the weird idea that feels can make the illusion have heat, but not project heat to the environment. I totally fail to see how this could work in the real world or how to avoid all the ridiculous borderline cases like hot bath-tube and similar. Spells that mess around with temperature are generally dangerous since they create lots of weird in game situations.

As I said above, it isn't said one way or the other, I'd be hard pressed to argue vs a GM call one way or the other. . .one of those points where games might vary.

There is absolutely nothing in the spell descriptions that says the feel allow the creation of warm wooden surface or similar. If the GM like to add such option because he want more powerful illusionists I have no objection, but I do have a problem with the idea that the spells as written include this option when the truth is that only Magicians and Mystics have spells that allow items to be heated. There is no spell list open for illusionist that allow him to heat objects...except if you rule that illusions can work as heat sources.

[kevinmccollum]

If you are realllllllly concerned about survival in such hostile conditions, have the illusionist pick up a second level magician spell "Warm Solid". Lasts 24 hours. heck, someone can buy an item that casts it once per day. Or any mentalism caster can pick up first level spell on Solid Manipulation.

IMHO, these kinds of arguments is why some people consider the Illusionist class controversial and often don't allow them. Personally, they can't create heat energy with a phantasm or illusion. It takes a crafty player to really use an illusionist and it isn't a class a lot of people would enjoy playing.

[Emaughan]

Personally, they can't create heat energy with a phantasm or illusion. It takes a crafty player to really use an illusionist and it isn't a class a lot of people would enjoy playing.

This idea of illusions makes little sense to me.  What is creating the sight, the feel, the sound etc...?

Illusionist have worked well in my games and they are a very powerful class.  Only in combat centric games where a heavy portion of experience is handed out based on kills and crits are they a hampered class (this is a key reason why I do not use RMs experience table - punishes too many classes and stifles creative gaming).

So again, adding a feel of warmth to the illusion would indeed bring real warmth.  Illusionist are the "artist" of the magic users who use small amounts of elemental forces to paint their world.

[mocking bird]

There is absolutely nothing in the spell descriptions that says the feel allow the creation of warm wooden surface or similar. If the GM like to add such option because he want more powerful illusionists I have no objection, but I do have a problem with the idea that the spells as written include this option when the truth is that only Magicians and Mystics have spells that allow items to be heated. There is no spell list open for illusionist that allow him to heat objects...except if you rule that illusions can work as heat sources.

So then what temperature are illusions?  Are they just room temperature?  If so then if you touch an illusionary person they would feel deathly cold.

Or if you want to get more bizarre, if you put an illsionary rock in hot water, would it heat up?  Or at what point does contact with a different temperature constitute an 'attack'?  If you had enough feels built in for the above rock to survive several attacks, would it heat up? 

Or more on the original topic, if you put an ice cube in illusionary tea, would the tea get cold?  How fast would the ice cube melt?  Say it was a blue ice cube, would the tea turn blue by mixing or would you just get a layered effect?

[pastaav]

So then what temperature are illusions?  Are they just room temperature?  If so then if you touch an illusionary person they would feel deathly cold.

Why shouldn't they be room temperatured? If the illusionist is stupid enough to allow a person touch the phantasm it is his problem.

If we are really stretching things we could say the mass of illusion is negligible so that it will heat very fast if anyone touch it, but there is nothing in the spell that says it would start at a different temperature.

Or if you want to get more bizarre, if you put an illsionary rock in hot water, would it heat up?

Why not? I can't see what is bizarre.

Or at what point does contact with a different temperature constitute an 'attack'?  If you had enough feels built in for the above rock to survive several attacks, would it heat up?

I don't think heating a object should draw feels unless the heat is large enough to cause a heat critical. Why make things more complicated...if you are using the attack tables then it is an attack.

For physical touch there are special limitations on the illusion that force us to check for breaking feels more often, but heat is something different so I can't see any reason why those special rules would matter.
 

Or more on the original topic, if you put an ice cube in illusionary tea, would the tea get cold?

Depends on your frame of reference...of course the room tempered tea illusion will be chilled by the ice cube since it take energy to heat the illusion. On the other hand the illusion is fake, so what in the long run is really chilled is the cup holding the illusionary tea, or the table and air around if also the cup is illusionary.

How much heat or cold that the illusion itself can contain depend on the mass of the illusion. It takes more energy to heat or chill a larger object. Since the tea is illusionary and the feels only can sustain very limited weight logic suggest that it's mass is very limited and it will be chilled very quickly.

How fast would the ice cube melt?

Depends on the room temperature, doesn't it? I don't get what the is problem is.

Say it was a blue ice cube, would the tea turn blue by mixing or would you just get a layered effect?

Read the spell description again...you are creating an illusion not real tea. If you want your illusionary tea to make the tea blue then you need an illusion that turns blue at the right time. There is nothing that suggest that your illusionary fluid will interact with the environment.

Just the same as you can make illusionary water that feels wet when you touch it, if you want the fingers to stay wet when they are removed from the water then you need to include that in phantasm you are creating. In many cases you would probably need a separate phantasm for it to work out in case the character moves away from the first phantasm.

To sum up...there is nothing in the illusionist spells that suggest they can produce heat...it is trivial (or require at least very little science knowledge) to tell what happens when the illusion interact with the environment that is at a different temperature if the illusion just adjust to the environment.

The same is very not true if the illusionist can create tempered objects. If the illusionst can will the illusionary water to be hotter than room temperature then he for all purposes has an eternal energy source that will require lots of science knowledge to deduct how it affect the environment. Any heat difference is enough to drive a Carnot heat engine.... 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

So then what temperature are illusions?  Are they just room temperature?  If so then if you touch an illusionary person they would feel deathly cold.

Why shouldn't they be room temperatured? If the illusionist is stupid enough to allow a person touch the phantasm it is his problem.

If we are really stretching things we could say the mass of illusion is negligible so that it will heat very fast if anyone touch it, but there is nothing in the spell that says it would start at a different temperature.

One of the aspects of the Phantasm spell, especially upper level versions of the spell is that caster can add other sense illusions to the phantasm so long as they know the appropriate base list (i.e. Light Molding or Feel-Taste-Smell).

The various Feel spells from the Feel-Taste-Smell spell list allows the caster to make an illusion feel a certain way. He can make it feel rough, make it feel smooth, make it feel cold, or make it feel warm, or even hot.

However, this "Feel" will NOT radiate (i.e. it cannot make other things warm or cold), and it cannot harm (cause any sort of damage - a "Strike" needs to be added for that, and even then the damage is limited to the strike) anybody who touches it (i.e. it feel hot but does not burn those who touch it).

Just the same as you can make illusionary water that feels wet when you touch it, if you want the fingers to stay wet when they are removed from the water then you need to include that in phantasm you are creating. In many cases you would probably need a separate phantasm for it to work out in case the character moves away from the first phantasm.

To sum up...there is nothing in the illusionist spells that suggest they can produce heat...it is trivial (or require at least very little science knowledge) to tell what happens when the illusion interact with the environment that is at a different temperature if the illusion just adjust to the environment.

An illusion does not interact with the environment. It is confined to its small area. If the illusion/phantasm is designed so that an area feels warmer than the surrounding area, then those within the illusion will feel the warmth of the area, but they will not be warmed by it since the illusion does not radiate, and thus cannot actually warm them.

The same is very not true if the illusionist can create tempered objects. If the illusionst can will the illusionary water to be hotter than room temperature then he for all purposes has an eternal energy source that will require lots of science knowledge to deduct how it affect the environment. Any heat difference is enough to drive a Carnot heat engine.... 

The water would not be hotter, it would only feel hotter. However, this "hotter" water could not heat up objects nor burn anything.

[dutch206]

SO, in short, the illusory campfire would generate light and a feeling of warmth.  (However, not enough to keep the party from freezing to death.)   Thank you for the clarification.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

SO, in short, the illusory campfire would generate light and a feeling of warmth.  (However, not enough to keep the party from freezing to death.)   Thank you for the clarification.

I would not even generate light unless the Illusionis used Light Control (which is NOT one of the features that a Phantasm supports, it is a completely separate spell).

[rdanhenry]

The illusion of warmth does not actually have to warm the characters in order to keep them warm, it just has to prevent them from losing the warmth their own bodies generate at the rapid rate that the arctic conditions would normally cause. The air would remain cold and when the illusion ended, it would not have any actual warmth to retain (indeed, since the characters would not have lost so much heat to the environment, it would be cooler than if there had been no illusion). But if the skin experiences the air as warm, it should transfer heat as if the air actually is warm. Remember that the sensory components of an illusion are real so long as the illusion lasts.

As for why a "feel" illusion allows temperature effects, that is because I assume that like other illusion components, "feels" correspond to a human sense, namely the sense of touch, which includes the sensations of heat and cold, as well as pressure and pain.

[Nders]

maybe it would be an idea to expand the repertoire of the illusionist with another base list dealing with energies such as kinetics, heat and cold. It will take some thought if the aim is not to turn the illusionist into an attack mage. Then again if that is not considered a problem I should think it would be an easy task - creating a new list that is

[rdanhenry]

I'm not suggesting that the Illusionist can ever do more damage than given already, but it can do that damage as fire, frost, lightning, slashing blades, falling rock, etc. Don't let a game-balance measure place an artificial limit on the types of attack the illusion can seem to inflict. In reference to an earlier post, the Illusionist can make katanas that cut, they just use the Rank I Martial Arts Strike table to do so against animate targets. There's no reason one couldn't exhaust a "feel" slicing through a rope.*

*-or an engine block , but that reference goes back a looooong way.

[Emaughan]

Don't let a game-balance measure place an artificial limit on the types of attack the illusion can seem to inflict.

I agree - much of what is stated against allowing illusions with feel to not really "feel", warmth is not really "warmth", seeing is not really light based, and sound is not vibrations in the air.  This makes no sense and I guess if the official view is that all illusionist spells have no influence on reality - then I'll just keep it as house rule that they do have some real effects.  It just works better for me to have illusionist as master malipulators of small amounts of elemental forces while the magician works with large amounts of elemental forces - but without the degree of control/artistry that an illusionist can bring to bear. 

This in no way would make illusionist unbalanced as the ammount of elemental forces brought into use with each illusion is small.   Not a combat powerhouse - but definately some intresting tools for this class to use in a game.

[providence13]

Doesn't Mentalism Companion have something about a person crossing an illusory bridge.

There's one instance of crossing a  gorge and another of not getting wet/not touching water crossing a stream IIRC...

I think they have a real component.
You had better make the logs burn up to help everyone believe the illusion.
And you'd better not tell them it's just an illusion!

Also, having cold at their backs would help them to believe that the illusion of a fire is real, IMHO.
You'd still have to huddle on a cold night. Especially if you're the caster... it would help others believe.
In fact, if I were the caster, I'd suggest that the other party members gather (illusionary) wood.
"Don't you remember, we say a fallen tree about 50 paces back in the woods"...

The other guys would "want" to believe, which would hurt their RR and help their situation. 

[rdanhenry]

Belief has no effect on Rolemaster illusions (other than the behavior of the individual). The sensations are real and do not go away or diminish because of disbelief.

[Marc R]

The phantasm of a fire would work. . .if it was large enough that the targets could sit inside it. . .since disbelief has no effect in RM, it wouldn't matter if you told the party it was an illusion, it'd still be warmer in there.

Even if one were to get more strict, as Pas is, and state no heat generation, just sitting inside a bubble of heat neutral substance would let your body heat keep you warm.

But it is important to keep in mind that illusions are really there, not mental figments, and with feel, phantasms have substance.

One thing though. . .if the cold is cold enough to kill you over time, this may work. . .but in the arctic, where the cold is so cold it may be doing critical damage round by round, it will act like attacks and grind away any feel effects fast. . . .

[pastaav]

Doesn't Mentalism Companion have something about a person crossing an illusory bridge.

Depends...the Mentalism Enhancer profession really deal with mental illusions...something completely different than the essence illusions we talking about in this thread.