Author Topic: Alternative to Fatepoints  (Read 8584 times)

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Offline Nejira

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2009, 05:32:58 AM »
Here is how my gamers would play it:
- Wow, that was a tough battle and I had to sacrifice my helmit to keep my brains from getting crushed.
- I agree, are you ready to move on now?
- NO
- No???
- Wait for me to go out to the mules and get a spare before our next battle.
-Oh ya, how many do we have left?

Well you could argue that planning should bring its rewards, and clearly your players did a little planning before going out on adventure  ;)

That said, one thing struck me. The NPCs have armor too, and it stands to reason that they would make use of this rule as well as the players. So if enforced I would end with neverending combat with bits of armor flying about ;D

What about this: a player can choose to ignore a crit result (not the damage done by an attack, just the crit) by increasing the "level" of risk run by his character. This means that he must put his character in a dangerous situation to avoid the effects of the critical.

While I do like the idea of there being an effect to using a Fate Point (other than using the Fate point), I feel that putting your character at risk runs contrarary to the point of sacrificing armor to save your own butt. But I do like the idea of a side-effect to using a Fate Point.

How about mixing the two. Would go something like this:

Fate Points as standard (whatever your standard may be) but when you spend one you have to define a side-effect. This can be armor breaking, weapon breaking (for those swashbuckling/berserking characters) or while you suffer that E crit to your head, it doesn´t kill you but leaves you unconscious and a prisoner instead.

So in short: each usage of a Fate Point brings a complication of its own.
I love complications. They drive the story forward and are usually very fun to play.  :)

My sentiment exactly.
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 06:04:26 AM »
The problem is that there's only one person who judge whaich choices are good and which are bad... I don't want my players friends to comply to my ideas of what is right for their character just because I'm the GM.

No, the GM doesn't decides that, are the actions and the situation itself what determines it. The GM only applies rules and give the situation.

Quote
This is rolemaster, PCs die.  Players can reduce this chance by being very cautious - but even if they are, they can still end up dieing.

I reapeat, the game offers ways for that, how about using lifekeeping/preservation spells/herbs and then heal the body?, have you ever bought a resurrection herb?.

It is so easy to become a hero?, it seems that yes, the only requirement is to create a character in a sheet, as all in the world is at my side to survive. Why not everyone goes to adventures then?. I see correct give players some advantage, but not make them so immune.

  • We are in a dungeon, search for traps in any corridor and door. Look for magical traps too, use "lores" to see if that symbol is a trap.
  • We are in the thieves lair, there are 20 of them, "let's slash them all", "wait, we need a plan", "who cares, we have many ways to evade death".
  • "I want that flaming sword", "wait, we are with no stock of resurrection herbs", "bah!, who needs them?, we can survive by many other ways, let's buy the sword to hack foes".

These are only example situtations, danger must be real to have real stressful situations, I (and my group) don't like a game where a magical fire ball trap has not the relevant respect.

Give some advantages to players, examples:

  • Don't use total destruction results against players, modify them for die but with recover possibility.
  • Insert NPCs to help, like high level lay healers or clerics, but they will want something as reward, can be money or a mission.
  • For dangerous adventures, insert events like "30% discount month in healing herbs", this includes preservation and resurrection ones, then players can use money from treasures to supply.
  • Modify some rules to evade situations like fumbles, for weapons we have swashbuckling, for spells we can use spell bonus to substract from spell fumble roll, so you can develop magical languages or talents to increase spell bonus.
  • As summary, allow players to decrease death probability, and opportunity to recover from t, but working on it, not for free.

Immunization is typical when begin to play, but after some time playing what you want is to have a realistic game, with real dangerous situations, are the foes against us, who will survive?, that is a real battle, and that is RM in its core, and that is a real role play game.
A real game is much more satisfactory than "I have born as a hero, touched by gods", work on it, try, and see if it is true that you are really hero facing the real danger.

Experience is not only a number after killing many monster, and more ranks in the sheet, experienced players are noticeable when facing situations as they have better planification and improvisations against situations of any type. But players learns really if they have the need.

Rules like fatepoints and other "gods touch" rules, are to convert RM more in a D&D like game, with charcaters that are destined to achieve glory directly.

Of course, play RM as you want, but I like RM as it is itself, for that we play it, as it is one of the few games that offers real role playing.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 06:58:40 AM »
Quote
I like RM as it is itself, for that we play it, as it is one of the few games that offers real role playing.

Sorry, I can't really agree with this sentence.
I love RM, but I'm really, really tired of the rpg holy wars of "real" roleplaying against "false" roleplaying!  :-\
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Nejira

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 07:03:33 AM »
Rules like fatepoints and other "gods touch" rules, are to convert RM more in a D&D like game, with charcaters that are destined to achieve glory directly.

Of course, play RM as you want, but I like RM as it is itself, for that we play it, as it is one of the few games that offers real role playing.

I see your point. RM without it´s deadly edge just isn´t RM, but then the randomness of certain deaths tend to take the fun out of it. I like meaningful deaths, but its hard to argue that death A is meaningful, while death B isn´t as its based on personal opinions. So hence we based it on a set of rules which tells us when a death occurs wether its one or the other.

I guess no matter what patch we apply, its all boils down to the same in the end. EG: A number that goes down (fatepoints being spend, number of "lives", amount of herbs left in the stash, or pieces of armor in the bag). When the number is up, you´re death for good.

Maybe the best solution to random deaths is what RandalThor suggested with allowing better PCs (higher stats, more DPs, talents, higher starting level, etc). It doesn´t remove random deaths, but it should make character deaths less likely or?
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Offline Emaughan

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2009, 01:53:34 PM »
Arioch - I like the gist of your post.  I agree that fate points should not be the only way to avoid PC doom, and I like looking for alternates.  As long as getting out of bad dice roll has a significant cost to the PC (money or circumstance) it keeps things balanced without going too fluffy.  Out of the frying pan and into the fire.


Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2009, 12:42:58 AM »

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that PCs should always suceed, or never face the consequences of their actions. I'm just saying that, as Emaughan said, a player should be free to play his berserker without having to roll a new character every other session. He probably plays his character that way because he found it fun and, after all, we play rpgs to have fun...

If you don't find dying fun, you probably shouldn't be playing a berserker. A berserker is by definition a high-risk, low-defense (but high-offense) character. They are not for those who dream of retiring to a nice castle some day, but for those who dream of ending in glorious bloodshed.
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Offline Nejira

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2009, 06:08:59 AM »
If you don't find dying fun, you probably shouldn't be playing a berserker. A berserker is by definition a high-risk, low-defense (but high-offense) character. They are not for those who dream of retiring to a nice castle some day, but for those who dream of ending in glorious bloodshed.

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Offline Arioch

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2009, 06:43:53 AM »
I thought berserker were something like a fierce norse warriors but yes, I can totally see a player choosing to play one because he likes dying. Dying is so cool, how couldn't someone love it!?  ::)
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2009, 08:06:45 AM »
I thought berserker were something like a fierce norse warriors but yes, I can totally see a player choosing to play one because he likes dying. Dying is so cool, how couldn't someone love it!?  ::)
Obviously, you understand that some (many?) cultures, including the Norse ones from where 'berserker' comes, have another look on life and consider it an honour to die in battle, insuring oneself an eternity in the Heavens, at the side of one's gods? So, yes, I can totally see a player choosing to roleplay characters of a culture according to their own beliefs instead of his modern, anachronistic ones. ::)
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2009, 09:08:11 AM »
What would be more interesting to play?

a) a berserker looking for a glorious death, who dies for a single unlucky roll at his first battle
b) a berserker looking for a glorious death, who get captured by his enemies at his first battle, escapes and, after various adventures, finally find his glorious death by fighting against a great foe.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2009, 09:48:16 AM »
Depends on your definition of "interesting". A thousand people, a thousand colours, and yours may not be others. About the matter, your "finally" comment shows your obvious bias in the matter, but I'd be less sure about how the second death is more glorious than the first, if only because the berserker's honour was tainted because he was captured, thus denied a glorious death at the first place. If he fought fiercely, courageously and honourably in his first battle, then if he dies, he dies a glorious death. Playing interest IMO doesn't reside in how long you've been playing a character, but how well.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:56:03 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2009, 10:14:09 AM »
Playing interest IMO doesn't reside in how long you've been playing a character, but how well.

Sorry, but I can't really understand how a character's death after few minutes/hours of play be interesting.
I spend hours making characters, thinking a good background for them, giving them objectives, hopes, fears, etc... I want these things count something in the game, and totally random death from a single unlucky roll blows them up.
Things like fate points increase the quality of the game imho, giving players a chance to create more interesting situations, and avoiding meaningless frustration.
Each character is a story, and death puts the word "end" to it (well, save for resurrections  ;D). Things like fate points make more likely that the story will culminate with a satistying ending, rather than a dull one (and I mean satisfying by a narrative point of view, not a "happily ever after").
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Nejira

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2009, 10:33:40 AM »
Yeah, I am with Arioch on this one. Imagine Braveheart (yes I know he is a not a berserker but he dies in the end. Sorry for the spoiler but if you havnt seen it by now, chances are you never will). IMO that story would have been pointless if he died by an random arrow in the first battle of the movie.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2009, 11:08:44 AM »
Sorry, but I can't really understand how a character's death after few minutes/hours of play be interesting.
If the single, first battle was grandiose enough, why not?

Quote
Things like fate points increase the quality of the game imho, giving players a chance to create more interesting situations, and avoiding meaningless frustration.
Each character is a story, and death puts the word "end" to it (well, save for resurrections  ;D).
Every character dies one day anyway so it's hardly an argument.

Yeah, I am with Arioch on this one. Imagine Braveheart (yes I know he is a not a berserker but he dies in the end. Sorry for the spoiler but if you havnt seen it by now, chances are you never will). IMO that story would have been pointless if he died by an random arrow in the first battle of the movie.
Or not. the ten first minutes could be his first battle, and have him die "by a random arrow" while the rest of the movie could be his youth, and how he eventually entered such a battle; that could be just as interesting. Arich talked about "spend(ing) hours making characters, thinking a good background for them, giving them objectives, hopes, fears, etc."; well, the creation process may be as fulfilling for some people as playing it, or fulfilling enough that having him die a grandiose death in his first battle is seen as an apotheosis, not a fall. Besides, who knows? Mayhap the character's death was even grandiose enough that he became a heroic figure in the world afterwards, so that later characters of the same playing group would keep talking about his fierce battle and heroic fight, even years later. Even if not, mayhap it was glorious and admirable enough that it affected his surviving companions and shaped their actions and personalities for the many years to come?

Using the movie analogy, you can make a wonderful 10 min movie and a boring 4 hours movie. That it was short short doesn't mean it cannot be interesting. It's like being a part of a theatre group, spending months making a play to see it cancelled a few minutes after it started. Does that necessarily mean that the months spent wasn't a pleasant experience? That it wasn't enjoyable? That you didn't have fun? I don't think so.
And so it is for spending hours making a character, and have it die a few hours into the game.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 11:18:30 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2009, 03:13:47 PM »
It's like being a part of a theatre group, spending months making a play to see it cancelled a few minutes after it started. Does that necessarily mean that the months spent wasn't a pleasant experience? That it wasn't enjoyable? That you didn't have fun?

Does it means that you wouldn't have more fun if the play wasn't cancelled at all? That seeing the show cancelled was actually better than having the chance to put it on stage?
Sure,creating characters may be fun or fulfilling, but playing them is far more fun. Otherwise we would play character creation games instead of rpgs...
Yes, coming up with a cool background for a character and imagining that he became one of Odin's favored warriors in the afterlife may be fun...but that's not a roleplaying game, it's just fantasizing over a fictious character.
And yes, every character dies just once but this only makes death more important. Death is probably one of the most important (if not the most important) moment of a character's story. There are different qualities of death, different ways to end a character's story: some of them are good, some of them are bad, and some of them are just boring and frustrating.
I don't want to ruin my character's story with a boring death
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline damilano

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2009, 05:40:21 PM »
Ah!  To kill or not to kill...

Call me crazy, but me, I just don't like offing the characters.  Yes, I hate it when that happens.  I always try to make sure there's a way NOT to choose the most dangerous confrontations and still enjoy the story.

Of course, sometimes they give me no choice.  And sometimes a critical roll turns out, well, shall we say, inconvenient.

So I start them with three fate points and award 1 every 3 levels.

To me, fate points are just another reminder that man is mortal.  One look at the current total can be very therapeutic for the player:

"Oh crap!  One fate point left and two levels to go before I get another!  You know, I don't think we really NEED to pick a fight with the Brotherhood of the Red Circle right now.  Let's try some anonymous skullduggery instead."

Good stuff can happen when the player is FORCED to think outside the bola.

Doncha think?
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Offline markc

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2009, 05:46:01 PM »
 I keep the fate point total from the PC's and ask them if they want to us it when the time is right. So most of my players assume that they do not have any fate points.
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Offline Nejira

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2009, 07:01:50 PM »
Good stuff can happen when the player is FORCED to think outside the bola.

Doncha think?

Yeah, I agree.
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Offline Emaughan

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2009, 10:44:40 PM »
Giving characters an out, as long as the out has consiquences and is not too frequent, allows for some very interesting game play.  With that said, all players in my game have a spare PC already rolled up and ready to go.  Right now the group is around 5th - 6th level and every one of them has lost at least one character during this campaign except my daughter who plays a very manipulative, self centered, elf (if anyone should have been killed, it should have been her).  

As for the Barbarian example - imagine the glorious battle where the Barbarian charges a vicious cat.  With high skills and a really cool magic two handed sword he swings at the cat - and roles a 02.  For 2 rounds the Barbarian is fumbling with his weapon and the cat (a familiar trying to protect his unconscious master) attacks the Barbarian.  First round, nothing but the second round - open ended claw attack.  Cat gets a 98 E tiny crit and the great Barbarian falls and dies in 9 rnds.  The above example happened in a game (except it was a Rogue not a Barbarian) and I do not remember the exact rolls - but the cat did score a 98 or 99 E tiny crit.  This would be a great place for either a fate point or plot twist like having the Barbian fall and be knocked out, become a prisoner, and the sorcerer now has someone new for "experimentation".

One side note.  Qudos to rolemaster for having a system where it is easy to mix PC levels.  We've played games where the level spread was up to 8 levels.  There are many systems where this would not work at all.  Thus rolemaster is deadly, and players need to start over at times, but at least it is easy to intigrate low level characters, who are starting over, into higher level groups.  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 10:56:58 PM by Emaughan »

Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Alternative to Fatepoints
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2009, 04:04:22 AM »
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Oh crap!  One fate point left and two levels to go before I get another!

That is a good solution, give a thing like fatepoints, but very limited.