Topic: The Big Score, and some questions.

[Tolen]

Ok, so a little background.  My brother works for a roofing company, and they were called out to help empty an old bookstore prior to a thorough remodel.  The store had gone under, and the space was mostly used to hold the back stock that didn't sell.  (It was one of those resell shops, and didn't carry many new items.)  The new owner of the bookstore just wanted the space emptied, so the crew were ordered to pitch everything.  Well, they had a section, albeit small, of RPG's and other games.  And due to a leak in the roof, most of it was ruined.

But my brother knows how much I like RPG's, so he salvaged the best looking boxes and brought them to me.

Again, most of it was water damaged, and got thrown out anyway.  But in the end, I wound up with several old RM2 books!  Now, I've read the RM2 rules, though it was some time ago, and I've invested a lot of money into my RMSS set.  But I certainly cannot argue with a relatively complete set of RM2.  I took the duplicates to my FLGS and was able to negotiate a trade for the remaining books.

So I scored big, and my collection is now nearly complete.  Now I'm re-reading the RM2 rules, and I'm seeing a lot there to like.  For example, I like the older version of initiative better than RMSS does it.  I like the rules for generating stats better.  In fact, the only thing off the top of my head that seems missing are the skills and categories from RMSS, one of the things I most like about that edition.  I still have reading to do, but maybe you all could help out with a couple of things. 

First I'm not sure the spell gain roll rules are clicking for me.  Someone want to run down how that works?

Second, if I decide to follow up on it, I'm thinking I might start saving up to buy the RMC books.  After all, it is the latest edition.  How much difference is there between RM2 and C?  And how much of the old RM2 stuff can be plugged in without change?

It does seem that a lot of the complexity I was thinking could be simplified was already there in the older books to begin with, and it might be easier to sell my new group on RM if I could show them less than an hour to build their first character.

[Right Wing Wacko]

But my brother knows how much I like RPG's, so he salvaged the best looking boxes and brought them to me.

Lucky sonofa...
 

[Tolen]

[renfield laugh] Heheheheheheeee [/renfield laugh]

[Hurin]

I don't have RMC, but I play RM2, and I hear that those versions are very close. Maybe someone else can spell out the specific differences.

As to the spell gain roll, it works basically like this: each rank you buy in a particular spell list gives you a 5% chance to gain the list. So if, say, a Magician bought 10 ranks in it, he would have a 50% chance from the ranks alone. He also gets to add his stat bonus (in his case, Empathy) to the chance, so if he had a +30 empathy, this would add on another 30% for a total of 80%. Once he's done buying all his boxes, he rolls percentile dice, and adds that to his percentage chance. If he gets 101, he gets the spells on that list that he had been studying (so the first ten spells on a base magician list, for example). If he rolls 100 or below, he doesn't get any new spells at all.

A few other points to note: If you don't get your spells, you keep your ranks and can try again next level. So in our case above, our Magician friend keeps his 50% from ranks, and can add new ranks on for his next level. So if he adds four more ranks, to bump up his chance from ranks to 70%, and then adds his 30% Empathy bonus, he will have a %100 chance of getting his list.

Another way of doing spell gains is explained in Companion III and expanded in Companion IV: this is individual spell gains/acquisition. These allow casters to spend points to get spells individually, and no roll is required. You just spend the points and get the spell. So A Magician just spends 2 points, for example, to get the first level spell on Fire Law.

Hope that helps; enjyo!!!

[mibsweden]

I think the stat bonus adding part of the Spell Gain Roll (SGR) is an optional rule.

Also if you expend enough points (i.e. 20) to get 100% to learn the first spell, you learn the first list automatically and can start developing points toward a second spell list the same level.

For example: Spending 25 points on spell lists as a Magician, would assure you 1 spell list for sure, and a 25 percent chance of learning a second spell list (plus stat bonus if applicable).

[Hurin]

I think the stat bonus adding part of the Spell Gain Roll (SGR) is an optional rule.

Also if you expend enough points (i.e. 20) to get 100% to learn the first spell, you learn the first list automatically and can start developing points toward a second spell list the same level.

For example: Spending 25 points on spell lists as a Magician, would assure you 1 spell list for sure, and a 25 percent chance of learning a second spell list (plus stat bonus if applicable).

I think you're right, it is an optional rule-- I just think it is very reasonable, so I always use it

Also, one thing to note about adding the stat bonus and going for more than one list: you have to spend 20 ranks, and have a 100% chance of getting the first list, before you start going for a second list and adding in your stat bonus. So if you only bought 19 ranks, you may have over 100% chance of learning the list when you add your stat bonus, but you don't get a chance at a second list until you buy all 20 ranks (or 21, to be exact).

[mibsweden]

I think you're right, it is an optional rule-- I just think it is very reasonable, so I always use it

Same here.

[kevinmccollum]

Additionally, if you do purchase 20 ranks in a spell list (which may be more than 20 development points), you AUTOMATICALLY are able to cast the first level spell on that list even before making the spell list roll. (Since in RM2, you spent the points for one level during the prior level, that could really help low level characters by having that leaping, or heal spell before they actually acquired the list.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Spell Gain Rolls -- See this post for some more information -- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7937.0;msg=102118

RMC vs. RM2 -- There are a number of small differences, but here are the  biggest ones

1) Initiative System -- This was completely changed in RMC, closer to RMSS/FRP, but not quite as there are no Snap/Normal/Deliberate phases - just init order and activity percentages.

2) Removed the Spell Type of Passive - All Passive spells are now either informational or utility (RMC also expands and clarifies how to resolve informational spells.


Complexity -- RM2/RMC is not a complex game. It is a more detailed game however, and folks often confuse that with complexity. Now, RM2 did suffer from bad organization, and from some (major) power creep throughout the RM Companion product line.

[thrud]

It's almost completely interchangable. All the old RM2 stuff can be used with RMC.
Some people worry about the power creep, others don't. In the end you always invent your own little hoserules to make your game unique to your group.

[Hurin]

I know Rasyr and some others would disagree, but personally, I don't see much power creep over the life of RM2. I think all the companions have useful information.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I know Rasyr and some others would disagree, but personally, I don't see much power creep over the life of RM2. I think all the companions have useful information.

All of the companions DO have interesting and useful information. However, all of the companions do also increase the "power level" of the game, especially for spell users.

[kevinmccollum]

I know Rasyr and some others would disagree, but personally, I don't see much power creep over the life of RM2. I think all the companions have useful information

What is your definition of power creep? As time went on, background options became more potent, classes stronger, spells stronger.

[mibsweden]

Yes power creep is definately there in the RM2 companions. But as Hurin pointed out there is useful info in there - you just need to know what you should and should not use.

Unfortunately it is not always clear how rules, skills, spell lists will affect the game play, and sometimes you end up introducing a rule that you later on might regret introducing.

[kevinmccollum]

Unfortunately it is not always clear how rules, skills, spell lists will affect the game play, and sometimes you end up introducing a rule that you later on might regret introducing.

Agreed. I used to use the RMCI backgrounds, races and classes and some classes from RMCII but noticed a couple of things over a period of time. 1) no one played elves or any other race is two or three background options. they wanted as many rolls as possible on those charts 2) no one played basic fighters anymore. the newer classes had better combat abilities. 3) OB and DB started getting much higher than basic RM2 and started "breaking" the charts.

I never changed rules mid campaign but afterwards, started tweaking things a bit. It was a bit of rolling back the power level a bit.

[Tolen]

Hmm.  Well, I've had time to read more of Character Law and Arms Law, and thumbed through the companions, stopping long enough to read things that caught my eye.  I think I'll steal one or two options for my game, but I think I'll stick to RMSS. 

It's mainly the skill system that does it.  RMSS has too many skills, but the system works.  RM2 has way too few.  By the time I get it tweaked up to a comfortable level (and added categories because I think that covers "similar skill" plenty well), I'm back to almost basic RMSS.  I also don't like the spell gain roll.  Further, I think they give out too few PP.  I like casting more than one spell a day at 1st level...

So I'll content myself with a mostly complete collection, and will still look for the few remaining holes I have to fill.

But thanks for the info, guys.

[Hurin]

Hmm.  Well, I've had time to read more of Character Law and Arms Law, and thumbed through the companions, stopping long enough to read things that caught my eye.  I think I'll steal one or two options for my game, but I think I'll stick to RMSS. 

It's mainly the skill system that does it.  RMSS has too many skills, but the system works.  RM2 has way too few.  By the time I get it tweaked up to a comfortable level (and added categories because I think that covers "similar skill" plenty well), I'm back to almost basic RMSS.  I also don't like the spell gain roll.  Further, I think they give out too few PP.  I like casting more than one spell a day at 1st level...

So I'll content myself with a mostly complete collection, and will still look for the few remaining holes I have to fill.

But thanks for the info, guys.

Go with what works-- if the RMSS is doing it for you, then it's all good.

Note that there is an option in one of the RM2 companions to give spell users 'base' power points... I can't remember how much, exactly, so correct me if I am wrong, but I think it works something like base hit points do. It gives your first level magic users a real boost so they can, like you say, cast more than one spell at first level.

Cheers

[Hurin]

3) OB and DB started getting much higher than basic RM2 and started "breaking" the charts.
 

Interesting. This has not been my experience, however, so I do have to ask: what exactly in the companions breaks the charts? I see expansion spell lists, which make for more spells, some of which are quite powerful, to be sure; but then again, fireball is a powerful spell, and it's in vanilla spell law. I just don't really see the companions providing spells so powerful that they 'break' the system.

But to each his own, I guess.

[kevinmccollum]

By 'breaking the charts' I mean that with basic RM2, you usually didn't have stat mods to the OB greater than 25. With RMCI background options, your ST mods could get into the 60's and give much higher OB, resulting in a lot more combat results over the 150 max.   This gives rise to discussions on how to "fix the problem". broken charts.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

  I also don't like the spell gain roll.  Further, I think they give out too few PP.  I like casting more than one spell a day at 1st level...

You might want to take a look at the issues of Express Additions --  http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMC/exad (this link gives the TOC of each issue) --, to see if there is anything there that you might like as well.

For example - Express Additions #3 has an option for Faster PP Recovery (i.e. recover PP over the course  1 minute per PP to 10 minutes per, based on what you are doing).

RMC Spell Law has an option that starts players with about 10 more PP then normal.

Combined, these two options make sure that you don't do the 30 minute adventuring day (i.e. wake up, get in fight with monsters, have to rest 8 hours so mage can get PP back)., but it also does not give spell users too many PP - so many that they can do almost anything (as often happens with multipliers and at higher levels).

Check out Express Additions #4 for Basic Combat Styles - which basically takes care of similar skills for weapons/combat skills. It also has an option for a single Maneuver in Armor skill.

For the rest, you could just keep the skill list relatively small, and treating the skills you do give as big bucket skills.

Take a look at the PDF found here -- http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/CharGen -- this contains the rules/options that ICE recomends (it does not include the Basic Styles, but those are easy to add in). But it does include the option from spell law where you learn spell lists as skills, rather than the random roll method.

You can easily mix-n-match things from both versions of RM if you wanted to put a little effort into it.