Author Topic: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?  (Read 14996 times)

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giulio.trimarco

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Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« on: June 04, 2009, 05:53:11 AM »
It's an interesting topic that I'll like to discuss with the community.

I don't know were to put this one, so I'll open it here, in Rolemaster generic session.

I'd like to discuss about ideas, concepts and misconcepts (even mine) on which the community base "the rulings" and discussion.

Weapon differences, modes of use, techniques, styles, fatigue etc.

 ;)

Since many concepts are at the base of a FRPG, it could be a fundamental step for creating a consistent rule base.

Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2009, 08:27:31 AM »
I'm for it! We could have leaders of countries strap on sword and board, heavy armor and fight out differences!

It appears that you have first hand knowledge of Medieval Combat! :D

I have friends in the SCA, perhaps similar to what you do, perhaps not..
These cats are always going on about armor, heat, rain, etc. In fact, do not drive in armor. But if you do, make sure your mount is an LTD!
If you aren't familiar, most play RPG's 

1st ed AD&D, had (optional) rules for each weapon's stats for init/to-hit.
Is this what you propose?
If so, aren't these factors already incorporated in the game and crit charts/combat?
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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2009, 09:05:19 AM »
Hey providence,

it seems that you are most eager to introduce some "bits" of combats in the RM system... aren't you?

So, no. I'm not proposing of using weapon mods.
I think that combat is a very complicated matter and that dynamics should be recreated and not peculiarities and such.

You should have weapon mods for different situations.
First contact, engaged, closed mode, style (or school) of combat, etc.
Too much work for too little diversity.

Offline thrud

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 09:28:49 AM »
I think RM is the perfect game for simulating irl combat since it already uses abstract battles.
The only modifications I would propose are changing the critical tables somewhat. Maybe include som generic crits.
If you have a dagger you can still headbutt your oponent och strike him with your fist, maby a knee to the groin or kicking out his knee?
Melee combat is so much more than just hitting someone with the pointy end of a stick...

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2009, 09:47:53 AM »
Thurd,

I'd like to discuss  bascic concepts used in RM and the ones you like to see implemented, not if RM is a perfect medieval simulator, which could or couldn't be, depending on many, personal factor.

Why you don't elaborate on the "perfect" idea with something more?
Abstracting battles is a good start, but something more can be added, don't you think?

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 11:17:45 AM »
What happens during any real fight is extremely spophisticated and complex, even if the results are fairly simple.  Creating rules to handle weapon reach, closing, grappling, weapon locks, etc would make the game a tactical simulation and extremely cumbersome.

As an optional set of rules....sure, why not.  I do not think that future success of RM depends on enhancing its complexity but on streamling and simplifing its core mechanics/philosophy.

As such, simpole rules, like an init bonus for the longer weapon on the forst melee round, or limiting parry to half effectiveness against certain weapon types, work very well.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 11:45:19 AM »
What happens during any real fight is extremely spophisticated and complex, even if the results are fairly simple.  Creating rules to handle weapon reach, closing, grappling, weapon locks, etc would make the game a tactical simulation and extremely cumbersome.

Exactly.  If you want combat to be 'more realistic' then you could easily add lots and lots of rules.  However it would also bog down the game in combat even more than it can happen now but might work for a one on one dueling game.

For the reason for the thread, could you be a little more specific for what you are talking about for 'creating a consistent rule base'?
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 12:03:49 PM »
I'm not talking about specific rules here.

I'de like to talk about "assumptions" that are used to create a (combat) ruleset.

For example RM assumes that a AT20 is the maximum protection against whatever weapon.
What do you think about this?

Another example is that RM system assume that a shield will give the some, identical bonus to anyone, be a master swordsman or a peasant.
What do you think? Is this assumption right for you? Or you think that a shield skill could be a more correct way of handling this type of weapons?

RM assumes that initiative is based exclusively on quickness.
Is this assumption in any way related to something "real"? How you visualize a fight between a "veteran" yeoman vs quick peasant? And on the battlefield you think that quickness is the only factor to how fast you will react?

RM assumes that the biggest the weapon the more damage you will deliver (in general).
And you? What you think about this? Many weapons, apparently very weak, could kill with with a single, precise strike a heavly armored opponent.

I'd like to discourse about assumptions on what the rules are based and see what we can sum up.
Sure many of us will feel more important some aspects, others will wonder of others...
The end of all this is to create a database of assumptions on which create new combat rules.

But beware, this will not necessarily bring to more complex rules. Viceversa!
With a good set of assumptions new dynamics can be created that, with even simpler mechanics, can deliver a more stimulating game experience.


Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 02:12:09 PM »
Death From Above;
 I think you might have to ask each question as you did in the post above as something you consider an "assumption" others might not. Or some might not even think of as an "assumption".

 A TV note; on Spike TV they are doing a VS series. Ninja VS Viking, Mob VS Yakaza, etc. In these shows they have a number of things they test and at the end they run 1000 sim's to see who will win in combat. IMO is it accurate for every situation? No. Can you glean some info from it? IMO Yes.

 I also think that if you can try and find some people who actually use the weapons in real situations and see what they have to say. In fact to make things easy you might simply ask them if they would answer a set of questions. One thing I have taken from the VS show and I do not know if it was played up for the TV show was most believe they are the best at specific things. This should be taken into account when reading the answers to your questions.

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giulio.trimarco

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 02:58:25 PM »
mark,

mmm, I should do a very looooong list of assumption  ::) mmm... yes :D!!

I can do it  :o


Offline Arioch

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2009, 04:16:24 PM »
For example RM assumes that a AT20 is the maximum protection against whatever weapon.
What do you think about this?

I'm fine with that, after all AT20 is just an abstraction, a way to say "the maximum protection you'll ever get".

Quote
Another example is that RM system assume that a shield will give the some, identical bonus to anyone, be a master swordsman or a peasant.

I think it would be more fun if skilled characters gained more bonuses from shields than untrained ones (more or less like in CC). It could make non-user more interesting and open new tactical options (expecially if special shield-based maneuvers are introduced)

Quote
RM assumes that initiative is based exclusively on quickness.
Is this assumption in any way related to something "real"?

I simply don't care if it's based on something "real" or not. I'd like to see initiative gone, but I doubt that'll ever happen.

Quote
RM assumes that the biggest the weapon the more damage you will deliver (in general).And you? What you think about this? Many weapons, apparently very weak, could kill with with a single, precise strike a heavly armored opponent.

Hmmm... aren't critical there for this sort of things? I mean, a 2 hander can deal an impressive amount of HPs, but even a dagger can kill you with an A critical.
Or are you talking about something else?

I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline providence13

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2009, 09:29:49 PM »
So, level helps with init? Or, sacrifice OB to add to init (someone suggested this..)

Shield Bash assists with DB? Or another shield skill that can be developed?

I like the idea of "brawling" in combat..Why shouldn't you be able to head butt..

I'm also casting protection vs irony :)
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Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 10:35:59 PM »
 That show on Spike TV is called The Deadliest Warrior.
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 11:39:06 PM »
I've been playing around with some notes for a tactical alternative to RM's OB/DB split system, something that gives a feel of tactical movement and active defense but still takes advantage of RM's excellent attack and critical hit tables.

My basic notion is a set of cards with seven maneuvers and a chart to show how they relate to the other maneuvers.  Each player plays their card face down in the action declaration phase and the cards are flipped before the combat phase or perhaps in initiative order.  It doesn't really slot into percentage activity too well.

The options are

Press - 100% OB
Circle Left - 50% OB
Circle Right - 50% OB
Stand - 50% OB
Give Ground - 50% OB
Disengage 25% OB
Cleave 100% OB

The gist of the chart would be roughly this:
If you cleave and your foe circles you stay facing them. But if they disengage or give ground you lose your attack.
If you Press and they circle they get behind you but if they give ground or disengage you still still can attack
If you stand and they circle you stay facing them but if they disengage or give ground they move beyond your reach.
If you circle and they circle, you either end up face to face or facing away from each other.
The difference between disengaging and giving ground is that you can always attack while giving ground unless your foe also gives ground or disengages.  Disengaging is also more effective against circling.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 12:57:55 AM »
It is my opinion that most of this is to be dealt with by the description the GM gives (with assistance from the crit and PC desired results) after the action has been rolled.

For example: Your fighter ended up getting a 38E slash crit to my attacking orc warrior. The player wants to "see" it as a mighty leg chop that causes the orc to upend, landing on it's back and bleeding out. As the crit result is massive blood loss, multiple rounds of stun, and a huge negative - I, as GM, say cool, that is what happens. Otherwise I try to marry the crit rolled and the player's desires as close as I can, like a weaker crit could be a grazing across the thigh that is mostly deflected by the orc's leg armor, so only a minor stumble and some hits.

What you are propsosing (I call Front-Loaded, as it is something that must be dealt with before anything is done in game) WILL unduely complicate and increase the amount of time it takes to do combat, even if it would be very detailed & realistic - though I do agree that some of the assumptions should be looked at again, but I can do that on my own. My ideas on how these things work together are different than others, I am sure.

Now, I would not mind someone putting this stuff together as I would totally rip off any descriptions and ideas I found to be usable and fun! (Hey, we're aliens and that's how we roll.  :o)

I guess I look at these games as more art than science, (which seems to be the dominant ideology of ICE gamers - maybe of all gamers) and more about creativity than number-balance. Just the way I look at it, I guess.
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Offline Trikk

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2009, 01:02:20 PM »
I think there's lots of room to evolve FRPG combat mechanics without making the systems too cumbersome.

Something I'd like to see is more position changes. Two people standing toe to toe for more than a few minutes is not very likely to happen. In a fight, making your opponent lose his balance and/or fall is a very common strategy. There should be much more clinching and grappling in fights involving infantry.

Another thing that's largely ignored is the mental aspect of combat. Making your opponent lose his will to win or even fight is a very common way of winning, and obviously happens before the enemy is knocked out or killed. It would probably not be very popular to have a system like that in an RPG though as people love their Mary Sue characters who never give up or surrender.

Too much realism will greatly upset game balance though, as some styles of fighting or weapon choices are simply superior.

Offline Frabby

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2009, 02:57:12 PM »
Whoa, biiig topic!

For starters, the RoleMaster rules, from a "realism" point of view, make me want to pull my hair out. RM isn't realistic. Not even remotely!
(That said, it's a fairly useable combat simulator for RPGin. You have to concede to playing a game at some point, and fighting is not a very important aspect of our campaigns these days anyways. We don't award XP for killing, which goes a long way to make our group avoid senseless and potentially dangerous bloodshed.)

The following is my personal view, based on my personal experience with swordfighting from some 7 years of showfighting (have admittedly given up on that hobby since, though). Been playing RM for some 20 years now.
A few concept ideas for a more "realistic" combat system, compared to RM (somewhat unrefined):

1) You don't fight with a weapon. You always fight with your entire body. A weapon is just an extension of your body. As such, there is essentially no difference to fighting with your bare hands, or with a weapon in one hand, or with a weapon in both hands, or with a weapon in each hand, or with a weapon and a shield in either hand. Also, what the weapon does is improve your bodily functions by adding momentum/power to an impact, improving range, and improving penetration power (through spikes, points and edges).

1a) A sub-point of this very concept is that Two-weapon combo in RM is just... wrong. Using 2 weapons does (should) not give you two separate attacks. You don't split into two, you don't attack along two vectors, actually you cannot even simultaneously coordinate independent attacks with your two arms - thinking it through, why can't you make a full Martial Arts attack with your free arm when wielding only one 1h weapon under current rules? You have two weapon-augmented limbs which gives you additional options and tactical flexibility. To the untrained, this includes additional chances to hurt yourself.

1b) There is no fundamental difference between objects used as a weapon. A rock, a club, a chair, a blade or a shield behave essentially similar which is why the distinction between shields and other weapons plainly doesn't work (except in RM rules).
Sidenote: Whoever assigned a plain +15 DB to main gauches probably never saw one.

1c) Ultimately, the difference between individual weapons is not nearly as big as RM rules suggest. The skill distinction between individual weapons is arguable at best (I really want to say totally stupid). Around two thirds of your combat skill has nothing at all to do with the weapon in your hand, it's all about your footwork, your position and movement relative to your opponent, and generally your ability to use your body (which, as I wrote above, is then augmented by the weapon).
In reality, there are only very few basic attack patterns (punch, swing, stab) and a given weapon will enable you to perform one or more of these better. In our group we have a house rule that says you develop skills in weapon groups, not individual weapons. A club is a club is a club, no matter if the object in your hand is a rock, a hammer, or a mace. They are just different in how much they augment your attack, but the basic principle is virtually the same.

2) There is no clear distinction between OB and DB. DB is always also offensive in nature because you can ignore an enemy attack against an armored part of your body which in turn allows you to attack him instead instead of parrying. By the same token, OB is DB because an attack potential will force the enemy to parry where he could otherwise attack, blocking out certain attack vectors or threatening to trade a hit for a hit.

3) "Initiative" is determined by range first and foremost. Big guys and/or big (long) weapons make all the difference in the world. The nimble thief or evasive ninja is an unrealistic myth. Life just isn't as balanced as some want the rules to be. (Also goes for DB and armor penalties, see below.)

4) It should not be possible to develop hitpoints as a skill. Pain resistance and damage threshold should be a fixed value, directly determined from a stat (CO). You can gain exhaustion points through training, and you can train a certain pain-resistance in real life but that is already covered in "stun removal" or "stunned maneuvering". You cannot train to have more blood or effectively take less damage from a given wound.

5) Bigger weapons don't neccessarily do more damage. Provided that they are not too heavy, big or unwieldy for the user (a real problem in some instances!) they will give different augmentations to your skills and attack maneuvers. At some point, depending on the user's skill and stats, the disadvantages will outweight the advantages.

6) A flat out material bonus does not make sense, much less the idea that certain materials are always flat out better than others. How could a mithril or eog club be more effective than a rock? Mithril is even supposed to be lighter so it should actually incur a negative bonus on bludgeoning weapons. An eog bow is not going to be +30, it is going to be painly unuseable as the string won't bend...
Mind that I am talking about materials here, not generic enchantments (which in turn might require special materials but would function independently from these).

7) The Arms Law hit tables are flawed in their basic premise. The question wether or not a hit was scored should be treated totally separate from the effect of the hit. RM convolutes this into a single table with the added problem of claiming that lower armor values have increased mobility, hence are harder to hit (which actually belongs to DB, not armor). This results in a severe penalty for leather "armor" which actually significantly increases (!) your chances to suffer a critical hit.

8 ) Armor. Oh boy, where to begin.
8a) Again, somebody at some early point of RM got the notion that certain materials are "better" than others, flat out. That's nonsense (I seem to need this word quite often here...). Different materials and armour styles affect different attack types differently. That's why there is such a broad diversity, they all have a balanced set of advantages and disadvantages which combine protection, movement inhibition, price, weight, and a lot of other factors. Ties in with point 7 though: Armor should be able to alleviate or totally negate hits, but it should not affect the probability of being hit in any way. This is one of the biggest issues I have with RM and "realism".
8b) Armor does not hinder movement anywhere near the excessive penalties given in RM. I have seen people in what RM describes as P19 jog for more than 20 minutes to warm up (admittedly, those were our fittest master fighters). In fact, leg movement is hardly hampered at all, but you may find it difficult to raise your arms above shoulder height in heavy plate (the joints block at some point, depending on your exact armor). Higher-grade armor will have more finely worked joints that allow for more movement.
The real problem with full metal armor is the sheer mass of the suit - you will be exhaustet fairly soon. Super-heavy plate (like a Cuirass) is too heavy to bear at all, and requires to move around on a horse.

Offline markc

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 03:58:58 PM »
 Thanks for the info based on your experiences.

#7) Maybe you could look at just the base Attack Value of the attacker vs the defender and then roll for damage. So you still only have to roll 1d100 or what ever die type you roll.

#8) I have a seen RM armor work most as protection to negate attacks as well as to help avoid crits. So when you are taking 1 or 2 points that is because you are letting your armor absorb the blow so you can attack more fully.

 Hits) I might be wrong but the idea of hits was described to me was as your ability to absorb damage, deal with nicks and cut as well as perform under general exhaustion. Now that was in a RM2 game back in the last 90's.  Now in RMSS/FRP they did come up with ExP which steps away from the RM2 idea.
 Also IMO increasing hits are one illusion quite a few people like in their RPG. I can say that I am one of them and was a reason that GURPS did not stick as my game system. Quite a few times I was going to institute a increasing hits system for GURPS but as I was in the process RM came into my world and I did not look back.

 I will tackle materials at a later date.
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Offline dutch206

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 06:42:09 PM »
As someone who used to be in the SCA, These are my feelings about medieval combat:  "Blood makes the grass grow!"  :evil1:
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Offline Elton Robb

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Re: Medieval Combat: How do you feel about it?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 07:49:22 PM »
Mechanics or not, RM is still a great game.  In fighting, anything can happen. *shrugs*  So while Frabby's assertions are valid, Rolemaster is still a game and they still needed to decide a way on how to resolve combat.  I really believe that no game is perfect, and creating the perfect roleplaying game is beyond the scope for us humans.

If you want to play a perfect roleplaying game, just live Life and give up rp all together.  That's my suggestion.
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