Topic: Arms users in Rolemaster (all versions)

[dutch206]

I think the question pretty much says it all.  In your opinion, do Arms users become less powerful as the party advances in levels? 

At higher levels, Magicians become able to wipe out a small opposing force on their own.  Clerics can mow through undead like a steam-roller over bubble wrap.  Mentalists, Sorcerors, and Mystics likewise become more powerful as their level increases.

However, what happens to the arms users after they get 25 ranks in all their class-related skills?  That's pretty much it for them.  (This isn't to say that arms users are useless, by the way.)  I just feel like high level arms users have been left out of the high-level block party.

[Marc R]

In a purely power sense, on the sheet, yes. . .they often have social benefits, but then, those same benefits and more often accrue to Channelers, so I'll say just "Yes".

[vroomfogle]

I would say Yes, but I don't think it's them getting 'hosed' - that's the nature of magic - great power.   I don't see any good way to solve it either, not without giving non spell-users quasi-magical powers on their own (which is something I don't personally care for) like they do in some other games.

[pastaav]

Well...I can't agree that they are hosed...I mean somebody must be at the top at high levels and the spell user archtype fits that role best.

It is true that arms don't see much improvement in the killing enemy area...but that is basically because they already know it all. It is not like the game would be better if the arms user learnt more slowly, that would only mean they would loose their edge at low level and still suffer the lack of mass attack spells at high level.

[markc]

 I would say no as I use the MAC with some extra house rules so they can get additional style abilities after they have reached high ranks in thier martial art or weapon style.

 I have not taken a look at the Combat Companion in a while but I also think that thier are some rules in thier for styles at higher ranks.

 I have also found that pure arms chatacter become more useful outside of battle at high levels. They can branch out and have more areas in which they are skilled. In my game thier almost allways are some NPC's to fill holes that the players do not have the skill for. But as the pure arms users gain in level they can cut out some of these NPC's. Also in my game generally NPC's get 1 share of treasure for every 2-5 people so in the end the fighters and others get to keep more money and in some cases they pure arms pick up the extra shares.

 Also in the RM games I have played in the pure arms PC's in general get more magic items than the other professions. Or I should say have more magic items sine they in general protect the spell casters or give the casters time to do thier thing.

MDC

[Ecthelion]

Pure Arms users IMO are indeed less powerful at higher levels compared to Spell Users - but only as long as the latter still have PPs. What is often overlooked is that PPs are a scarce resource. And when the Mage has run out of PPs he is useless, while the Fighter won't have such problems and can fight (almost) endlessly.

[dutch206]

At low levels, spellcasters are door-stops.  I suppose it's karmic destiny that fighters defend them at low levels, and they protect the fighters at high levels.

[Fornitus]

 There is a social balance for the high lvl fighter.

 Very few rumors of the local fighter lord raising an army of undead in their basement. And even if true, it is less beleived than almost any spell caster in  the same lordly position.

 Besides, as King do you REALY want that caster you dont completley understand in the line for succession? As a Baron or something? Dont think so.

[Arioch]

Votes "not sure" because with the new CC arms users have many good reasons to buy new ranks in attack skills after 25th and seems more balanced even at higher levels. OTOH the power of high level spell users comes mostly from their great versatility: they can do almost everything using their spells...

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I voted no, only because its a swings and roundabouts thing.

You could just as easily come up with a poll saying "Are Pure-Spell Users hosed at low level".

It's down to play balance. A generic adventuring party is not representative of the majority of fantasy based demographics for a start.

It is fairly likely that most low-level spell-users will die...or feel near useless. High level casters will represent a VERY small proportion of the population and it is unlikely that many would therefore choose the hard path or be given the opportunity.

Again the FRPG gamers always try to artifically "Balance" the field in this respect. Any system that promotes an even award of xp etc is making the situation worse.

Take AD&D which had several different xp tracks, of which Magic-user was one of the slowest. It was the slowest for a reason..game balance, a thief would accelerate through the early levels because of this.

RM's xp system is also good in this respect, since as was mentioned above, a Spellcasters ability to earn xp is primarily dependant upon it's ability to cast spells. It does so slower and with less effect than a fighter does with a sword...

Quite simply Arms users (Fighters specifically) will race through the inital few levels because of it's ability to earn xp in a virtually inexhaustable fashion.

Although it is possible for a high level mage to decimate low-level opposition, it will be rare for a high-level character to encounter low-level opposition and if they do they will gain virtually nothing from doing so.



 

[mocking bird]

Yes - as written that is, and I don't have the combat companion.

An arms user around 15th level has essentially the same class specific skills, i.e. weapon OB, that a 30th level would have.  Sure he might be proficient with 15 weapons at that time but hitting with a 350 hits the same as with a 150.  Meanwhile the spell caster is racking up ranks in spell mastery for more lists - which gets really overbalancing if you use SoHK damage mods.

If using the MAC, there are some additional skill that could be picked up if allowed - chi for example - but even then, considering the number of exp needed at each level getting two ranks in a skill over 100,000 exp doesn't give you much bang for the buck.  Then again there isn't a whole lot else to spend exp's on unless you want to pick up some open lists.

[Fidoric]

As a fighter addict, I must say no. A factor zhich has not been evoked in this thread is the GM and the kind of campaign being played. In my campaigns, fighters never feel useless. The highest level we reached with my team was a 31st lvl magician and a 30th lvl fighter (that was me). Sure I wasn't able to create storms or Earthquake, but still my skills remains ever useful.
The mage surely diversifies his magic skills, but they are still magic skills, whereas my character was an able commander, a skilled tracker, a true swordmaster...
OTOH, in a high magic campaign, fighters may be left behind. In some other campaign (Middle Earth for example), you will always have to rely on strong fighters (or thieves, rogues...). Ask Gandalf !

[dutch206]

  Sure he might be proficient with 15 weapons at that time but hitting with a 350 hits the same as with a 150. 

You must not use the optional "Wrap the Charts" combat rule.

[mocking bird]

  Sure he might be proficient with 15 weapons at that time but hitting with a 350 hits the same as with a 150. 

You must not use the optional "Wrap the Charts" combat rule.

Actaully we do which makes it a bit more palatable but I was resopnding wrt core rules.

However it is an example of house/optional rules are mandatory to give non's some carrot so they do advance in efficacy even when their weapon skills effictively cap.

[ictus]

depends how the game is run rather than what the characters are, for me it's the roleplaying, after all our D&D cousins can have the high level power fun, we are more gritty