Topic: "Touch" Illusions

[munchy]

Is it possible to create a bridge over a crevice using an illusion with the touch sense? Basically this is just an illusion BUT it is there, isn't it?

Illusionary swords, shields, and the like?

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere before but I couldn't find it. So, sorry about it.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

IMO, yes -- but I would also require things like no moving faster than a few feet per round (moving too fast would remove the "touch" sense) and perhaps a maneuver roll if they are not careful

It would not be a good thing if the party were crossing a chasm when somebody stumbled (removing the touch), or if a flock of birds smacked into it (if the illusion was not visible). Oopsie....

[Dax]

The way Illusion spells are treated in RM was a revelation for me:
There are illusionary monsters with the possibility to harm you, but your own illusions
are immaterial. RM put it the right way !

With illusionary bridges or swords I always imagine that they also do need a
"Sight Mirage" (or what it is called).
It would be more likely you make a wrong step if you don't see the bridge,
even if it is even. Or you need more concentration.
Or imagine you wield an invisible sword, you have to be used to it, to swing it
the right way (with the edge not with the flat side).
And remember for each strike the illusionary sword or shield do need one "Touch".

...

It would not be a good thing if the party were crossing a chasm when somebody stumbled (removing the touch), or if a flock of birds smacked into it (if the illusion was not visible). Oopsie....

Or if someone get a clue a simple arrow could remove one "Touch".

[Ecthelion]

We did allow such an illusion in one of our adventures, but we required quite a lot of the "feel" elements of the illusion put into it as we ruled that every step onto the illusionary bridge cancelled one of the "feel" elements. With no feel elements left the character falls down on his next step...

[yammahoper]

I use the weight restrictions for moving objects with spells to limit just what an illusion with feel can do.

As long as the item is in the area of effect of the illusion, I would let it be used.  I have altered the strike rule just slightly from the standard; the spell must be cast on something, and if that something is struck, a feel is lost.  I demand the object be at least 10 lbs per point of illusion.  Detect illusion spells always detect the "power center" of an illusion.

Technically, the sword should be limited to degree one martial arts attack for resolving damage, with slash crits substituted. 

Illusionist are very complicated in RM. 

lynn

[pastaav]

Is it possible to create a bridge over a crevice using an illusion with the touch sense? Basically this is just an illusion BUT it is there, isn't it?

Sure, but be sure to calculate how much the feels can support. The illusionary bridge you can walk over is possible for high level user, but the spell caster is much better of by casting flying on everyone to cross.

Illusionary swords, shields, and the like?

The feel will not be enough to emulate a shield. I would allow the illusionist to use the Strike spell to make shield solid enough to parry an attack, but that is a houserule.

[Marc R]

technically, a "Phantasm" (feel illusion) can be as real as the real thing.

A bridge illusion with 1 feel would work perfectly up until someone struck it one blow, then it's gone. (More, with more feels.)

So, if you carefully walk over, sliding your feet, not stomping, you could pass an army over one. . .

of course, the odds on 100 people crossing a bridge without dealing it one sharp blow are close to nil. (Buncha movement and maneuver rolls.)

Always felt they were like a soap bubble, amazingly strong, yet fragile. . .and I don't think there's any weight restriction on them at all, just totally fragile to any sudden stress that could be defined as a "blow".

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Agreed -- one "blow", and personally I would count running or tripping and falling onto the bridge to be equal to 1 "blow"

Some good fun -- party illusionist created nice visible bridge with a bunch of feels on it over chasm (we were trying to get away from angry mob of monsters). We get across and we sit there watching them follow as one person stands at our end of bridge and smacks it with a sword... until all of the feels are gone.

The visual aspect is still there, but all on the bridge take a header. Those on the other side, have no idea why...  so some still try and cross....

[mocking bird]

So, if you carefully walk over, sliding your feet, not stomping, you could pass an army over one. . .

Yes young grasshopper...

Always felt they were like a soap bubble, amazingly strong, yet fragile. . .and I don't think there's any weight restriction on them at all, just totally fragile to any sudden stress that could be defined as a "blow".

Weight restriction is only five punds.  Fairly certain that was in the Mentalism Companion, perhaps GM Law but I am pretty sure the former as it has a chapter on illusions.   I would say each step would count as a 'touch'.  Counting a slide as only one step seems a bit weak - unless you could slide the whole way on one foot.

Technically, the sword should be limited to degree one martial arts attack for resolving damage, with slash crits substituted. 

There was a really long thread about illusions a few years ago and subbing crits was an option some people used - using a heat crit it you created an illusionary firebold. 

[bunny]

I'm going against the flow, but it wouldnt work in my campaign.

Illusions are illusionary, not real. I've never been particularly comfortable with the feel element anyhow, but imo it shouldnt be a "real" feeling - your brain is tricked into thinking you've been hit (so you suffer the pain of the blow). You may be tricked into seeing and feeling a bridge, but gravity wont be fooled - you'll fall through it.

[mocking bird]

Which is fine for mental illusions.  However RM illusions can also be essence based meaning something is actually there a la holodeck or Green Lantern.

[bunny]

Which is fine for mental illusions.  However RM illusions can also be essence based meaning something is actually there a la holodeck or Green Lantern.

I understand it's probably counter to rolemaster canon. However, essence or mentalism makes no difference in this regard (imo anyhow) it's still an illusion. As I see it, an essence user who makes a bridge is doing something different from an essence user who makes an illusion of a bridge. I would distinguish the essence user's illusion from the mentalist's by disallowing the RR - the sensation of treading on the cobblestones of a bridge is real no matter how good you are at resisting magic. Equally real is the fact you're standing in midair - you're feet will provide genuine contradictory sensations as you plummet.

Not so much arguing a position as just chipping in with a dissenting view.

[Elton Robb]

The Holodeck -- hmm.  I'll have to get out LUG Trek to explain that one.  But Mocking Bird is essentially correct.  An essence Illusion with a lot of "feels" is essentially a Hologram construct.  An essence illusion bends light, and the "Feels" gives it enough substance that when it comes to blows; the substance is removed little by little.

Here is a question: How would you create a effect like the Old Phantasmal Force spell from D&D Basic?

[yammahoper]

a phantasmal force was a save or die spell, so target gets an RR.  Fails and dies, resist and nothing.

In the 3.0 and later versions, the spell would case a B crit if resisted, probably unbalance, or if RM2 materials are available, a stress or tranfomation crit (the spell transforms you dead unless resisted, some damage is almost unavoidable).

lynn

[bunny]

The Holodeck -- hmm.  I'll have to get out LUG Trek to explain that one.  But Mocking Bird is essentially correct.  An essence Illusion with a lot of "feels" is essentially a Hologram construct.  An essence illusion bends light, and the "Feels" gives it enough substance that when it comes to blows; the substance is removed little by little.

Here is a question: How would you create a effect like the Old Phantasmal Force spell from D&D Basic?

So can I pour water into an illusory cup with a feel option? Can an illusory flame with feel set fire to a piece of paper? Does an illusion of a pile of bricks set off a pit trap?

It may be that the wording of the rolemaster spell allows these things, but I dont think they are illusions anymore. They're temporary manifestations.

[Marc R]

Remember that in RM2 illusions are "E", so they're all actual manifestations of light, smell, sound, touch. . .not in your head ala mental illusions.

So a light illusion would power a solar cell, a sound illusion could be recorded, a feel illusion can actually apply force.

[mocking bird]

So can I pour water into an illusory cup with a feel option?

Possibly.  It would have to be done under concentration from the caster rather than a stationary illusion.  However then you enter the problem of would a stationary illusion of water in the cup move with the cup.  I would say so.  Would the feel option make the cup get heavier?  Again I would say so, up to the 5lb maximum, but this might require concentration to get the weight increase correct.

Can an illusory flame with feel set fire to a piece of paper?

This is debatable.  Does it actually create fire?  Under the rules it would be no since it could still do only MA crits and not heat crits - but many houerule otherwise.  It is similar to would an illusionary torch illuminate the room or woult its illumination have to be created as well?

Does an illusion of a pile of bricks set off a pit trap?

Again possibly - depends on how much force illusions could create.  The 5lb max seems to be pretty consistent to it may set off the trap if it is that sensitive.  Nor could you stack the feels to get 10 or 15lbs.

It may be that the wording of the rolemaster spell allows these things, but I dont think they are illusions anymore. They're temporary manifestations.

Correct, they do become essence based physical creations and as such become much more technical as opposed to mental illusions, which are basically mental attacks, where the mind fills in the details.

[Peter R]

Is it possible to create a bridge over a crevice using an illusion with the touch sense? Basically this is just an illusion BUT it is there, isn't it?

Illusionary swords, shields, and the like?

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere before but I couldn't find it. So, sorry about it.

There is a Potent magical item (creatures & treasures page 80) called Niki's Sandals of Illusionary Paths. The descriptions says "Thin, gilded soles with silk thongs that wrap around the ankles. Wearer my walk upon phantasmal surfaces (illusions of bridges stairs, ramps etc.) as though they were solid., 3x/day for upto 1 hour.

If it takes a Potent magical item to allow you to stand on an illusionary surface then I would rule that you cannot do that as standard.

[markc]

IMHO each step is a touch, so the illusion would not last long.
MDC

[tbigness]

An example of a touch illusion that the players used was when they were being ridden down by black knights, the Illusionist created a barricade of spears in the path and 5 horses (5 touches) were impaled by running into them. this caused all kinds of problems and the PC's escaped.