Topic: RR - Rudimentary Rolls

[DerGraumantel]

Hi everyone,

Through the decades RM has struggled with a problem to my eyes:

What to do about normal activities that everyman should know, but involve a bit of risk and you don’t have that skill.

Lets imagine a magician with Ag 90 (for the sweet direct spell bonus, what an agile guy, 90th percentile dude, elite soldier stat) and he has climb a tree with some lower branches to escape some Wargs.

He did not put any ranks in climbing (he has other priorities) so he gets a -25 on the roll, his 90 gives him +10 (RM2), +15(SS/FRP), +24(RMU). If we suggest the the maneuver is of the rutine kind, he gets +30 on the roll in RMU, has to reach 41 or better in SS and RM2 (since the Movement Maneuver table is in use in both).

RM2: 70%

SS/FRP: 75%

RMU: 29%

This person is on top of their game physically but can't climb a tree with any security, especially not in RMU, which ditched the Movement Maneuver table.

I feel the three lowest tiers in the MM table were designed to make untrained attempts easier, since there is a severe cut off for medium difficulty (40 points).

Another example would be with Joe Average the  Fighter with Ag 50.

RM2: 60%

SS/FRP: 60%

RMU: 5% 😛

This does not feel right at all!!! So what is my solution?

### Rudimentary Rolls (RRs)


I think it would be desirable to have a 85-90%% chance of success for the elite guy. Is there anything in the system for that? Yes, RRs in practice are stat check’s for Co, In, Em, Sd and Pr.  So I use the RR table/procedure (success threshold 50 instead of 110 (RM2/SS) or 100 (RMU) for Stat-based Maneuvers and increase the difficulty by two steps (light/+10 in this case) and remove the -25 penalty (for everyman skills, as I call them history aware:), so I get:

Elite guy:

RM2: 70%

RMSS: 75%

RMU: 85% (yes!!!!!)

Regular guy: 
RM2: 60%

SS/FRP: 60%

RMU: 60%

I think this is acceptable as far as the chances are concerned. So why develop a skill, one might ask. To get really good and to get the +20 (two degrees of difficulty better) advantage.

So you might argue that the player should have put a rank in Climbing. Yes he could but a system should not permit the player to create an impossible character. Just imagine my player forgot to buy ranks in Jumping but is quite ok at climbing, suddenly he can’t jump a 5’ chasm (like Pippin could in Moria). Lets say the is a easy maneuver. That is nonsensical and we should have a procedure for these situations, especially in RM2  where there is no category bonus that helps us out a bit and even more especially in RMU where there is not even an adjusted MM table on top of it.

Weight-lifting, Climbing, Running, Jumping, Acrobatics and so on come to mind imidiatly. It could also be used for recalling stuff (Me), checking logic (Re) and such. Also some cultures could have a set of skills that you can RR-check, if you have no skills, since these things permiate your society (like me and soccer, I sure don’t have that on my Character Sheet even though I’m sure a bit better than people from a non-soccer playing culture)

That was a long one. Hope someone made it to the end.

[Thot]

If they are at the top of their game physically, then they will have a rank in that skill from childhood. Otherwise, there's room for improvement. A complete bookworm without any experience of ever climbing a tree will fall sometimes when trying the first few times. That's just how it is.


That said: By personal approach is to always allow to "take the 50", that is, do not roll the dice, but just declare your rolled a flat 50. For routine, uninteresting stuff, that's just a quick solution to the problem.

[DerGraumantel]

[/quote]

If they are at the top of their game physically, then they will have a rank in that skill from childhood. Otherwise, there's room for improvement. A complete bookworm without any experience of ever climbing a tree will fall sometimes when trying the first few times. That's just how it is.

Not in RMU, a character can be more agile than 90% of the population and still have only a 5% chance at climbing an easy tree.

That said: By personal approach is to always allow to "take the 50", that is, do not roll the dice, but just declare your rolled a flat 50. For routine, uninteresting stuff, that's just a quick solution to the problem.

That is even worse. Than it would be impossible for one of the most agile people around to climb a tree.
Would love to see the players face when the GM tells him. „Sorry man, you can’t climb trees that my 8 year old son climbs. I know there are wargs and all but you have never climbed a tree in all your life and for all that agility you can‘t figure out how to get up there. You are a top notch jumper though, better than everyone around for hundreds of miles.“

Ok, that was a bit sarcastic. The point stands though. Another way to handle it would be to give at least one adolescence/culture rank on climbing, running, weightlifting and jumping. These things everybody’s done plenty in their youth and childhood.

An even better example would be a Fighter of 200lbs with St 90 without weightlifting ranks but an OB 84 has a 5% chance of lifting a stone of 40lbs in RMU. Funny, that he can carry that huge backpack but the Thief with three ranks in weightlifting has to put it on his back since he forgot to put a rank, even though he is strongest by far.

Maybe we should fix it with a new skill, Carrying. A bookworm that never carried anything, doesn‘t know how to move his arms to put on a backpack, but is a worldclass climber. Should have put those ranks into Carrying I guess.

This makes no sense. Skills can’t cover everything or if they do they must be very general (think Move instead of Running and Jumping) or you have to be able to do a stat check, as I suggested.

Why is there no skill for resistance to magic?? Or for fear? Or why not for St to begin with?

[Thot]

[...]
Not in RMU, a character can be more agile than 90% of the population and still have only a 5% chance at climbing an easy tree.

A high natural agility will not magically make you able to climb when you've never climbed before. I find that quite logical.

That is even worse. Than it would be impossible for one of the most agile people around to climb a tree.

As they have the choice, no it wouldn't. But sure, if you cannot climb, you cannot climb.

An even better example would be a Fighter of 200lbs with St 90 without weightlifting ranks but an OB 84 has a 5% chance of lifting a stone of 40lbs in RMU.

That's not how I read the rules:

"There is no need to roll every time someone picks something up. The rules are intended for use in stressful situations in which someone is lifting something
in combat time, or when someone attempts to lift very large weights. Under most circumstances it will usually not be worthwhile to require a maneuver for feats of
strength that are of Easy or less difficulty

Your example constitutes such a case, by the way: The maneuver would be Easy for that character.

If this has been mishandled in your group, I suggest to point this out.

[rdanhenry]

It isn't that he cannot climb the tree. It's that he's going to have trouble climbing the tree quickly under the stress of having wargs right behind him. If he just came across an easy to climb tree on a normal day, there would be no reason to require a roll.

[jdale]

In a non-stress situation, it would be reasonable to treat tree-climbing as a percentage maneuver. In that case, the chance of failure is actually very low, and it's more a question of how long it's going to take.

[The Chorned Jat]

One of the players in my old group pointed out that the game could basically just be run using the RR table, I didn't disagree

[DerGraumantel]

One of the players in my old group pointed out that the game could basically just be run using the RR table, I didn't disagree

Many modern minimalist rpgs (Cairn springs to mind) do exactly that, they just use stat checks (saving throws in D&D parlance) and ditch skills completely. While it is not for me as a crunch addict, I think it can be very nice. Actually playing one such game with my kids and it's fun and maybe that influenced my decision of making more use of stat checks with the RR table in RM as well:)

That this (no reasonable way to check for rudimentary actions) is a problem in RM like systems, is shown as well through the many ways that it was tried patching this. Merp tried it with Adolescent Skill development, SS/FRP with Skill category ranks, Against the Darkmaster by stating that every Culture must have at least one rank in Perception and Athletics (their skill for all general movement).

[jdale]

In RMU, every culture likewise has Perception, Running, and also Body Development and Unarmed Combat. So these are skills that never suffer from the -25 untrained penalty. (Body Development needs it for Fatigue checks.)

It seems ok to me that many initial attempts to climb a tree (for example) are not going to be successful if you treat them as all-or-nothing maneuvers rather than permitting gradual success (percentage maneuvers). There are lots of things that you can eventually succeed at even if it takes a few tries.

[DerGraumantel]

I would extend that to at least weightlifting and climbing as well. I see that the substantial increase in stat bonus helps here as well.
In our games we dropped the -25 for most skills that we deem "everyman" anyway. (climbing, weightlifting, running, jumping, perception, etc).
I even go so far and treat stalking like that. Who hasn't tried to sneak down to the living room to watch late night tv as a kid?
I just say you can't make a check here, it's not appropriate, if I feel it does not make sense to be able to succeed without special training.

Unsure if I should not just remove the most basic skills and just use RR based stat checks for those. Still unsure. Interesting discussion.