Topic: Alternative Power Sources for Magic

[terefang]

hello

Brian Hanson posted on the Rolemaster Blog that he uses 7 Power Sources rather then the traditional 3 or 4 of Stock Shadow World / Rolemaster.

i have come up with the following list:

• Essence (aka Arcane in D&D)
• Divine (aka Channeling in RM2)
• Primal
• Verse
• Runic
• Elemental
• Shadow

anyone did something similar ?

[Thot]

Generally in my worldbuilding, I prefer to have as few sources for magic as possible. With RM campaigns, I tend to stick with the threefold approach RM proposes.

That's simply for convenience: the spell lists are assigned that way, and having to reassign them would seem like a lot of work for little gain. How do you handle this?

[netbat]

I also only use three sources, but use the HARP rules for Essence, modified RMSS for Channeling, and if it ever comes up, Harnmaster psionics instead of mentalism.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I've been trying to modify HARP CoM power sources (Granted mana, Ambient mana, Personal mana, Fixed mana) for use with RM. I've been doing this mainly because it supports a new methodology of learning spells that I've been working on, one that requires you to learn fundamentals before learning the more esoteric stuff. For example, having to learn the Ignite cantrip and Arcane Bolt before you can learn Firebolt.

The stumbling block at this point is "Aspects" as defined in CoM. RM spells require aspects that HARP CoM doesn't have. So I'm going through RM spells, deciding whether they could be defined using CoM Aspect rules, and if not what new Aspects need to be invented in order to cover them.

[terefang]

Generally in my worldbuilding, I prefer to have as few sources for magic as possible. With RM campaigns, I tend to stick with the threefold approach RM proposes.

That's simply for convenience: the spell lists are assigned that way, and having to reassign them would seem like a lot of work for little gain. How do you handle this?

my main concern was to assigning each Spell caster a matching Power Source and possible Tradition and making Spells/Lists available at costs in relation to the concepts rather than the established realms.

so you would be able to have:

• a D&D/Fantasy style Druid with Primal Power Source and Druidic Tradition
• a Celtic style Druid with Primal Power Source but Theurgic Tradition
• a Naturalistic/Native style Druid with Primal Power Source but Shamanic Tradition

but yes, i need to acknowledge that it takes some work of analysis which might not be decided on the spot by every GM easily.

[terefang]

I've been trying to modify HARP CoM power sources (Granted mana, Ambient mana, Personal mana, Fixed mana) for use with RM. I've been doing this mainly because it supports a new methodology of learning spells that I've been working on, one that requires you to learn fundamentals before learning the more esoteric stuff. For example, having to learn the Ignite cantrip and Arcane Bolt before you can learn Firebolt.

interesting that you mention the distinction between Ambient, Granted, Personal and Fixed.

i have also been at this stage of abstraction coming from core RM2, but traditional (or better invented fictional) is more diverse than that usually a mix and match and i dont want to bother players with that basic level, if there is no rule-mechanical difference between them (at least not on my table).

[GrumpyOldFart]

Another reason I've been working on those distinctions is because I want power points to derive from 4 different skills in 4 different skill categories, none of which is Magical Skills/Mystical Arts, and I want fumbling a casting to have 4 different effects.

Granted mana is derived from Appeasement, an Influence/Social skill.
Ambient mana is derived from Thaumatology, an Academic/Scientific skill.
Personal mana is derived from Self Mastery, a Concentration skill.
Fixed mana power points come from the components themselves, but the skill of using them to get the desired result is Ad Hoc Sculpture, an Artistic skill.

[netbat]

Another reason I've been working on those distinctions is because I want power points to derive from 4 different skills in 4 different skill categories, none of which is Magical Skills/Mystical Arts, and I want fumbling a casting to have 4 different effects.

Granted mana is derived from Appeasement, an Influence/Social skill.
Ambient mana is derived from Thaumatology, an Academic/Scientific skill.
Personal mana is derived from Self Mastery, a Concentration skill.
Fixed mana power points come from the components themselves, but the skill of using them to get the desired result is Ad Hoc Sculpture, an Artistic skill.

Interesting! At some point I wanted to extend the combat companion weapons style construction rules to magic and use those or similar skills as required skills in the spell construction instead of the power point dev as you are doing. How do you make the DP costs for those skills closer to the pp dev skill instead of making them too cheap?

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'm not sure I can understand the question. If you're creating a new skill, you can make the DP cost whatever you consider appropriate.

However, one thing I'm doing is houseruling that in order to cast a Hybrid spell, you have to use at least one PP from both realms (unless it's 1st lvl, in which case you use the one in which you are least skilled), and that for Arcane spells you have to use at least one PP from each (same caveat). That puts the character who wants to do such things having to maintain 2 or 3 vastly different skills in order to be proficient. Fixed mana is mostly used for rituals, but you can use it to beef out extra PPs if you like. But the same rule concerning PP source still applies.

[Cory Magel]

I use the usual three, however where you get one of them can vary.  For example, Channeling could be obtained directly from a Deity, from an 'idea' like, Peace, War, Greed, etc., or from a life-force like Nature.

[MisterK]

I use only one - every magic comes from the Essaence. The three realms are merely different ways of accessing it. The Gods do not actually provide power, though they *can* provide boons if they want and *can* prevent people who invoke magic in their name from accessing it. In order to actually channel power from someone else (another person, an item, or a god), you actually use the Channeling skill (which is also the skill that gives you power points, incidentally - the better you are at gathering the Essaence in general, the better you are at channeling it from or to someone else).

There are plenty of traditions, but they vary in
- the lists they give access to
- specific techniques that allow practitioners to have bonuses in certain magical activities, and possibly be hindered in others (magic styles)
- access and bonuses to specific ritual types
- use of armor when casting (armor is not constrained by realm, but by tradition)
- requirements, bonuses or reduced modifiers when using props such as voice and gestures
- access to magical languages
- use of specific symbology for imbedding, warding, but also divination
- and last but not least, belief in how the world works.

In my interpretation, Mentalism users access the Essaence of the world by processing it through their own body and mind and using the processed energy to create effect. Channeling users access the Essaence of the world by use of mental icons that represent their beliefs and using those icons to "imprint" their will on the world by molding the energy into predefined patterns - those mental icons create a link and a dependency with the Power, but whether this dependency is actually active only depends on the will of the Power and their interest in the user. Essence user access the Essaence by recognising and altering the energy patterns at the point of effect.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I use only one - every magic comes from the Essaence.

Well in much the same way, so do I.

Ambient mana is the natural flow of energy for the planet/plane you're on.
Personal mana is the Ambient mana of the caster's own body and mind.
Granted mana is the "Personal mana" of the deity doing the granting.
Fixed mana is ambient mana trapped in objects.

But it's still 4 different ways of accessing mana, even though it all ultimately has the same source.

[MisterK]

I use only one - every magic comes from the Essaence.

Well in much the same way, so do I.

Ambient mana is the natural flow of energy for the planet/plane you're on.
Personal mana is the Ambient mana of the caster's own body and mind.
Granted mana is the "Personal mana" of the deity doing the granting.
Fixed mana is ambient mana trapped in objects.

But it's still 4 different ways of accessing mana, even though it all ultimately has the same source.

The main difference is that, in my cosmological view, magic always uses the ambient energy to work - using the caster's own energy is a sure way to quick burnout (literally most of the time), and the gods do not provide energy to their followers routinely. The difference is in the way - the technique, so to speak - to access this ambient energy, and the bias that this technique creates on the resulting magical capabilities (spell lists accessible).
An Essaence user using a Channeling list would not use the mental icon of a god - they would use their normal Essence technique to access the energy.

Essaence matrices - power containers - are objects that slowly accumulate energy and store it. They provide a shortcut to normal Essaence aggregation, because a significant amount of energy is concentrated close to the caster, but the technique to access it remains the same for each Realm.

But that's Shadow World - where gods aren't (gods), rather very powerful aliens. I kind of like the idea of most channelers being magic users victim of a good case of self-delusion (the god gives me the power), and 'the gods' playing along to keep their influence with their toys.

To give a complete picture, the Unlife - anti-Essaence - is a completely different type of power, unrelated to the three Realms except in the way it 'eats' at the Essaence. You cannot use the Unlife for anything except pure, unadulterated destruction (of something - physical, mental, emotional, whatever). That's why most servants of the Unlife actually use the Essaence - the Essaence is much more versatile a tool. That's also why a true servant of the Unlife is only an empty shell - the illusion of existence, and nothing but a black hole inside.

And psionics are another thing entirely as well, unrelated to the Essaence and working in completely different ways (and able to work even in Essaence 'dead zones'). Closer to Mass Effect's biotics in a way. And beyond rare in the world, because while most people do have some psionic potential, the availability of the Essaence and its pervasiveness make developing magical powers much more likely - developing psionics requires wiring one's mind in a certain way, which is more or less incompatible with Essaence manipulation (only more or less, since the Lords of Essaence were able to wield both powers, but this ability is presumably lost with them).

[DerGraumantel]

I use only one - every magic comes from the Essaence.

Well in much the same way, so do I.

Ambient mana is the natural flow of energy for the planet/plane you're on.
Personal mana is the Ambient mana of the caster's own body and mind.
Granted mana is the "Personal mana" of the deity doing the granting.
Fixed mana is ambient mana trapped in objects.

But it's still 4 different ways of accessing mana, even though it all ultimately has the same source.

Similar here,

Essence uses leftover Chaos from before creation to fuel its spell, something like raw creational power.
Channeling uses the choas that was bound in creation through gods or nature.
Mentalism uses the left over chaos responsible for amongst other things free will in humans. 

Essence has some drawbacks, since it is pre-reality chaos it can cause changes in the practitioner in fumbles, like body growth or extra fingers. Made a fumble table for that.
The Essence Empire in my setting had magical pillars installed in their realms, that controlled the chaotic essence problems. Those failed, the Empire collapsed and a new religion regulated the use of Essence, and the time of my group plays in a Dark Age like time comarably to 9th century Europe. The remnants of the Empire are still kicking (think Byzantium), but from the north new conquerors seek to take what they can.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I have Ambient mana being the balance of order and chaos.

The skill of Thaumatology is the skill of spotting where chaos is being injected into ordered systems, and order is being injected into chaotic systems. But that constantly changing flow of order and chaos is in all things, including Gods, individual minds, and everything living or dead. When a rock solidifies, that flow becomes "fixed." Likewise when a living thing dies, that flow becomes "fixed."

The nice thing about using the flow of order and chaos as your definition of Ambient mana is that you can use all kinds of things to test that flow in your local area. Cards, dice, a flipped coin, scattered sand, nearly anything. If a handful of scattered sand (a chaotic system) falls in rows, obviously things are much more ordered than normal. If a random deal of cards (a chaotic system) comes up with 4 royal flushes, obviously things are much more ordered than usual. On the other hand, if a flipped coin turns into something scaly and purple and flies away, obviously things are much more chaotic than usual.