Author Topic: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting  (Read 864 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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City building.

im wanting to build two cities with maps, factions, economy, ruler hierachy, docks, military, guilds, crime syndicates/underworld factions and other places of interest.

I have a basic description of each city but thats all. Has anyone here undertaken such an ambitious project before?

My plan is to use what physical maps i have lying about from a handful of old modules that rarely see the light of day and hobble together a city map for each city. I know theres lots of 'ready made' contecnt online and much of it is free but for my own engagement i want to create these two cities from scratch and add my own themes and flavour to them.

Im keen to hear any suggestions for such an ambitious project. Cheers!

Offline jdale

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2023, 05:30:12 PM »
I've done some of those things but not to the level of city maps and specific locations. I have tended to make larger areas so I needed to fill in the sketch-level descriptions for a lot of places relatively quickly. As such, I'm a big fan of random generators. You can always apply editorial control but it is great for getting a lot of ideas quick.

You probably know these for maps but if not: https://watabou.github.io/

For everything else, I tend to use IPP, which is free: https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro

Some highly relevant generators for it:
Inns, taverns, etc: https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1098/inns-hostels-and-rooming-houses#latest
Cities (paragraph description): https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1624/stupidly-quick-city-building#latest
Villages (in case you want some around your city): https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1107/it-makes-a-village#latest
Factions: https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1615/factions-in-towns-and-cities#latest

I have no idea (cough) who made those.

I have not played with it yet, but people have mentioned ChatGPT is also good for generating random descriptions.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2023, 06:33:05 PM »
Cities tend to grow organically. The oldest part of town will have once been a barbarian encampment. The oldest streets used to be trails, maybe even cattle trails.

The newest and best planned part of the city will be the part that was afflicted by flood or fire most recently. Plague possibly, but only if the new residents sterilized the old ground by burning down the buildings. If your city has a "dwarf quarter," they probably rebuilt the buildings to suit themselves. Lots of cities have walls, but if those walls have been in place more than 50 years, the city has at least partially outgrown them. It may have outgrown them by the time the walls were complete. And the dwarves have probably tunneled under them in any case.

Much can be decided by the needs and priorities of the city's rulers. Are roving traders assumed to be a source of thievery? If so, then there is likely to be a caravan camp outside the city walls, and traders aren't allowed inside the walls after nightfall. If that system has been in place a long time, you may have a permanent bazaar/souk outside the walls that is larger than some of the city's districts. If religious infighting has been historically a source of violent conflict, all temples may be required to be outside the walls. If one is by far dominant, especially if it is the chosen religion of the city ruler, it may be the only one whose clergy is allowed within the walls, and there may be a chapel attached to the local citadel.

Basically it amounts to asking yourself how did it start, how did it grow and why, and what do the people who live there want? Don't leave magic out of the mix. If there is cheap and simple magic available in your game that would make the city cleaner, more prosperous, more efficient, etc. then it makes no sense not to have it in use. An obvious example is street lights.

Lastly, yes jdale is right, NBOS software makes some good stuff, they are well worth looking into.

NOTE: Dallas, TX began life as a Native American encampment. Why? Because a ridge of rock passed under the Trinity River at that point, making it one of the few decent river fords for many miles in either direction. Upper and Lower Vicksburg were for most purposes 2 separate cities, one at the top of the bluff and one at the bottom. Start with geography and figure out why people want to live there in the first place.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2023, 08:53:22 PM »
I've done some of those things but not to the level of city maps and specific locations. I have tended to make larger areas so I needed to fill in the sketch-level descriptions for a lot of places relatively quickly. As such, I'm a big fan of random generators. You can always apply editorial control but it is great for getting a lot of ideas quick.

You probably know these for maps but if not: https://watabou.github.io/

For everything else, I tend to use IPP, which is free: https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro

Some highly relevant generators for it:
Inns, taverns, etc: https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1098/inns-hostels-and-rooming-houses#latest
Cities (paragraph description): https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1624/stupidly-quick-city-building#latest
Villages (in case you want some around your city): https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1107/it-makes-a-village#latest
Factions: https://forum.nbos.com/discussion/1615/factions-in-towns-and-cities#latest

I have no idea (cough) who made those.

I have not played with it yet, but people have mentioned ChatGPT is also good for generating random descriptions.

my thanks to you sir. this will help me tremendously.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2023, 08:58:30 PM »
Cities tend to grow organically. The oldest part of town will have once been a barbarian encampment. The oldest streets used to be trails, maybe even cattle trails.

The newest and best planned part of the city will be the part that was afflicted by flood or fire most recently. Plague possibly, but only if the new residents sterilized the old ground by burning down the buildings. If your city has a "dwarf quarter," they probably rebuilt the buildings to suit themselves. Lots of cities have walls, but if those walls have been in place more than 50 years, the city has at least partially outgrown them. It may have outgrown them by the time the walls were complete. And the dwarves have probably tunneled under them in any case.

Much can be decided by the needs and priorities of the city's rulers. Are roving traders assumed to be a source of thievery? If so, then there is likely to be a caravan camp outside the city walls, and traders aren't allowed inside the walls after nightfall. If that system has been in place a long time, you may have a permanent bazaar/souk outside the walls that is larger than some of the city's districts. If religious infighting has been historically a source of violent conflict, all temples may be required to be outside the walls. If one is by far dominant, especially if it is the chosen religion of the city ruler, it may be the only one whose clergy is allowed within the walls, and there may be a chapel attached to the local citadel.

Basically it amounts to asking yourself how did it start, how did it grow and why, and what do the people who live there want? Don't leave magic out of the mix. If there is cheap and simple magic available in your game that would make the city cleaner, more prosperous, more efficient, etc. then it makes no sense not to have it in use. An obvious example is street lights.

Lastly, yes jdale is right, NBOS software makes some good stuff, they are well worth looking into.

NOTE: Dallas, TX began life as a Native American encampment. Why? Because a ridge of rock passed under the Trinity River at that point, making it one of the few decent river fords for many miles in either direction. Upper and Lower Vicksburg were for most purposes 2 separate cities, one at the top of the bluff and one at the bottom. Start with geography and figure out why people want to live there in the first place.

Awesome! appreciate your wise words gof. cheers!

Offline Jengada

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2023, 11:06:07 AM »
Druss, I swear we're running parallel world campaigns. The overlap between your posts and my own world development is amazing.

I agree with, and appreciate, everything in GrumpyOldFart's post. While I do much more culture/nation building than I do city building, this is a lot of how I go at it. I do iterate between "what is the history" and "what do I want for the present" in doing it. For example, right now I've got a library in a city, and it's a cornerstone of that city's history, run by a very established organization. I know what I want the organization and library to be like in the present. I want to flesh it out a lot though, and to do that, I'm asking myself how it developed over time, what its history is, and how that history interacted with the overall city's history. This gives me a lot of opportunity to enrich the organization and come up with nuance, as well as adventure ideas digging into the "why" of how it works.
I'm also learning (still!) to leave grey areas. Don't fill in everything, or you have no room to improvise, or add neat new ideas you come up with.

Jdale's mention of ChatGPT in the random generators caught my attention, as I was just reading about how AI uses web-scraped content. I also get a lot about AI from my son, who is an artist and is following art+AI controversies. I'm reluctant to use any of the AI at this point, not knowing whose work and creativity are being reflected, and whether they truly consented to that.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2023, 11:44:04 AM »
Jdale's mention of ChatGPT in the random generators caught my attention, as I was just reading about how AI uses web-scraped content. I also get a lot about AI from my son, who is an artist and is following art+AI controversies. I'm reluctant to use any of the AI at this point, not knowing whose work and creativity are being reflected, and whether they truly consented to that.
From what little I know, consent is not explicitly requested nor granted most of the time, which is a big part of the problem.

Offline jdale

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2023, 11:46:26 AM »
>I'm reluctant to use any of the AI at this point, not knowing whose work and creativity are being reflected, and whether they truly consented to that.

That's a legitimate concern, but it depends what you are trying to do. If you are creating something for sale it's worth thinking about, and I share some of those concerns. If it's for personal use in your own campaign, it would be fine to crib maps and descriptions off the internet directly, so putting them through a blender first doesn't seem any more problematic.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2023, 11:58:11 AM »
Jengada, really liking your input and agree we could be on the same page here for whats imp for the feel and realism in a homebrew world. im big on modifying of the shelf content as its easier than starting from scratch. im actually at a crossroads with my campaign the party only just venturing outside the sandbox city iv used for 90% of my campaign (20+ years of adventuring!). tbh it was just becoming too small and therefore forced me to open new far off locations and craete reasons for them to travel there. Due to time avialable for live play I fast fwd travel between destinations mostly with Magical Circles which are controlled and created by a lawful guild of mages. Permanent circles exist in key locations about the known world but access to these are well guarded buy the guild and using them requires a navigator mage with an artifact (Compass) designed for safe travel. I allow higher level navigaotrs to create temporary circles but these are notoriously unrealiable and even dangerous to use with a possibility users could be lost in The Void.

In a future story arc my plan is the send an enemy through to the Known World we play in from a new world (The Shadow World). This event will throw the party into a conflict between the gods of the two worlds with one in particular - a Dark God manipulating events through his followers to kill all the gods from the world where the players are currently. If you are familiar with Raymond E. Feist's novels about the riftwar its inspired by that. Will place the party in an unfamiliar world with strange new creatures and set them on a quest to stop the dark God and his minions from total invasion and destruction of their home world. Its really just a mechanism for me to expand the game world into new locations/regions for my players to explore.

Im looking fwd to seeing the look on my players faces when towards the end of one of our 10 session annual seasons when I drop them in it after them using one of the magic circles goes terribly wrong and they appear in a new world!

Offline Spectre771

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2023, 05:16:54 AM »
Here are a few more city generators I've used.

https://probabletrain.itch.io/city-generator?ac=Wr7UchMaVvG

This was posted a while back.  Credit to OP (Boromir)

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20306.new#new

I also use the Vulgarlang Language Creator.  I used it to expand the Seoultang language introduced in RMC-I.  The app was so fun to use and so configurable, that I bought the licensed version.

https://www.vulgarlang.com/

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2023, 10:35:23 AM »
Here are a few more city generators I've used.

https://probabletrain.itch.io/city-generator?ac=Wr7UchMaVvG

This was posted a while back.  Credit to OP (Boromir)

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20306.new#new

I also use the Vulgarlang Language Creator.  I used it to expand the Seoultang language introduced in RMC-I.  The app was so fun to use and so configurable, that I bought the licensed version.

https://www.vulgarlang.com/

Thanks Spectre :)

Offline Intrepidations

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Re: World Building - im wanting to create two cities for my campaign setting
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2023, 11:09:10 AM »
I'm at the start of building my world too, I'm finding Scabard rpg very useful and using chatGPT fairly extensively. its very useful and you can refine ideas that it helps with.  Not sure how that could be considered plagiarism as it is doing know more than we are, learning from what it has read.