Topic: My Biggest RMU Complaint

[nash]

My biggest RMU complaint is that I can't play it with just the Core book.

What is annoying is it is pretty easy to fix; Add some monster stat blocks to the end of the book.   Then you can slap together some martial only characters and at least play a simple adventure.   Having to purchase multiple books to even start a game is a massive discouragement.   

Some other example;
Truncheons & Flagons has pretty much all you need in the core book; there is an appendix with a few pages of monsters.  HARP nailed it - everything in the core book you needed, just extra stuff later to expand the game.  RMSS pretty much had the same problem, although it did have the NPC stat blocks there.

Hence how much effort would be to at least put a table with some monster / enemy stats at the back of the book?   Twenty single line descriptions of some common low level monsters would be great.

My other suggestion would be to add a few spell lists to something like 5th level at the back.  Just 3 open essence, 3 magician base, 3 open channeling and 3 cleric base (spell lists picked to not need much extra rules).   I say ignore mentalism and most other classes just to make it super simple.  This is a dozen lists to 5th level - 60 off spells in total - should be able to get that in 3 or 4 pages.  However this is not as important as getting the monsters there however.

This is not a big deal for experienced players I know - I can grab my (28 year!) old Creatures and Monsters and use them with some simple adjustments to AT mostly.

Otherwise RMU looks pretty good and pretty polished compared to previous editions.  The presentation is generally good, it's mostly clear.   My next biggest issue is that Shock bolt needs to use Lightning bolt so I need to do a whole heap of division when players use the most common low level ranged spell attack.  Can we change Small to Miniscule please?

[jdale]

>Can we change Small to Miniscule please?

That's being done, it will be in the PDF when it is updated.

We're way past the point to add significant amounts of content though. I think what you are looking for is more of a quick start book and that is something we discussed doing in some form after the rules were finalized and released.

[nash]

WRT to monsters; Maybe a free 2-4 page PDF with a list of monster stats and the icons?  If you can bundle it with RMU all good - but a free download on drivethru would be amazing.

Else the only enemies are what a GM makes themselves. 

[katastrophe]

I fell into a similar trap in expectations for the product. I’m over that illusion at this point. RMU, whether intentional or not, is a product aimed at the Rolemaster diehards. It’s not really designed to be a new start to an old game, just kind of a compilation and clean up of Rolemaster house rules. Now I may be being slightly unfair, but that definitely is the way it feels.

Don’t get me wrong, I think there’s some good work that was done in cleaning the rules up but that’s pretty much all there is. In the meantime, within the past 2.5 years Against the Darkmaster was released with what are simply cleaned up MERP rules, everything in one book, 3 adventures and an official/unofficial 3rd party product that significantly expands both the spells and “professions”/vocations.

Side by side, the overall rules for both games could be interchangeable. Except that AvD has released significantly more material and are working on a full on campaign and the 3rd party is putting out 3 additional adventures which are to form a campaign.

The fact that RMU was released without some very necessary and simple additions that would make it a completed product is pretty inexplicable, unless of course the purpose was never to expand the player base and compete in the RPG fantasy game market.

Just a couple things that could be done to remedy the basic issues.

1) faster release schedule. The glacial pace at which ICE will release products will do them no favors in picking up new players and actually hurts them with current players. If I can’t switch my current campaign over to the new system, what’s my incentive to do so. I may as well just stick to RMSS or RM1/2/classic, at least it’s supported and the materials are already done.
2) set forth a clear set of product releases. The members of this forum ie die hard RM players may know all the stuff for RM must someone that’s coming back to the game after years or new to it would be clueless to what’s coming and some idea when.
3) hurriedly support your existing game world or make another. Nowadays, few people pick up an RPG and think “man, I can’t wait to do a bunch of conversion work”. What’s more common is “cool game and setting, I can’t wait to do a deep delve and run the adventures they put out and maybe add some of my own”. The fact that ICE has a setting with 100s of pages in materials that could be reprinted, cleaned up and RMU converted along with their product and failed to do so is business malpractice. That EMER, Sel-Kai or Jaiman wasn’t converted and released with RMU stat lines at a minimum is incomprehensible.
4) offer a free QuickStart with a simple adventure, some spells and few premades which could introduce people to the game, that’s almost a standard for almost every game that exists.
5) a website. The worst of games have one of those to promote their crummy game, RMU/ICE needs a real one to push their game.


I’m sure I could come up with about 50 more points but I suspect it’ll fall on deaf ears. The smallest of companies are getting this right.

[katastrophe]

interesting that the moderator made changes to my post. LOL

[rdanhenry]

interesting that the moderator made changes to my post. LOL

The "moderator" in this case being automated forum software.

[Cory Magel]

My biggest RMU complaint is that I can't play it with just the Core book.

Unless I'm crazy (entirely possible) you couldn't with RMSS either.  There was just no way to put Spell Lists, Attack and Crit Tables into a book of core rules.  The thing would have been impossibly massive.

[jdale]

RMFRP managed it by having a subset of professions, races, spells, and attack tables. It made for a better introductory product but a worse reference book once you were actually in play, and you had to essentially purchase all that content twice once you wanted everything. I don't think it's optimal. There's still definitely a place for something to serve as a convenient entry point but I don't think that should replace the core rules.

[nash]

RMFRP managed it by having a subset of professions, races, spells, and attack tables.

RMSS was probably the worst as far as how much you needed to play.

My point however is that that RMU Core has almost everything you need to play a non-spell using game.   You just need a few monsters.   Like a couple of pages worth and it is a playable game in one book.

Having Arms Law in the same book as Character Law is a great step forward.  And just a few enemies, and we can start hunting rats in the tavern basement or something.

[MisterK]

On the other hand, even RM1 was split into three books (Character Law & Campaign Law, Arms Law & Claw Law, Spell Law). But it was sold in a single box, which also happened to include an adventure module, Vog Mur. A complete package.

The various editions of D&D also have three main books, but the PH includes everything needed to create and play characters, including magic.

RM2 inflated the word count of the rule books. RMSS did it again in a fairly major way.

And I really, really think that the core of the RM system should have been trimmed down. Have the character law contain everything that allows players to create and play characters - same content as the PH, with a similar page count. Which means marking a significant number of subsystems as options and pushing them back into a companion or something.

Basically, RM1 offered more in 100 pages than RMU does with a full book. Less precise, more prone to interpretation and misunderstanding, but you could grab it and play, and worry about the finer print later.

[jdale]

There's a tension between concise rules and providing the GM with a way to handle a given circumstance. Over the whole playtest period, there have been lots of requests to make rules more specific and more clear, or to cover situations that weren't previously covered, and virtually none for taking out rules that cover situations and leaving it to the GM to decide.

[katastrophe]

The need for more and more rules usually means

1) the games is placing realism over fun
2) the rules are too complex overall
3) the game is missing a general resolution mechanic that resolves 99% of situations.

Our group over the 35 years of gaming have likely played over  100 different games, even if some were just a quick test. The games that provide the best play experience lack unnecessary complexity and a need to cover every possible situation.

The best games have

1) fast combat
2) enough skills to generally represent most things players need to cover
3) centralized mechanics for near all situations
4) as few exceptions to the general rules as possible.
5) support materials for running a game within the game world that shows

Simple is nearly always better. If you can’t make a rule concise in an RPG, the rule is doing something it shouldn’t.

[MisterK]

There's a tension between concise rules and providing the GM with a way to handle a given circumstance. Over the whole playtest period, there have been lots of requests to make rules more specific and more clear, or to cover situations that weren't previously covered, and virtually none for taking out rules that cover situations and leaving it to the GM to decide.

I acknowledge the tension you speak of, but I'm not sure the playtest is a good indication of what should be done. Playtest is typically realised by people who already know either the designers themselves (alpha testing) or previous iterations of the game and are already fairly hardcore fans (beta testing). There is a strong risk that any beta testing will end up emphasising both the qualities and the flaws of any given game system if it is an iteration (compared to a new game).
In addition, beta testing, especially over the time RMU has been in beta, is a lengthy process during which people have a long time to actually read and understand the rules before using them, whereas people who simply buy the game expect to be able to use it quickly. My comment was only highlighting the fact that RMU, like most previous iterations of RM, is not designed to be used quickly and not designed to be memorised easily either.

But in any case, there are ways to make rules more concise that can be done even in that kind of games, such as standardising the action modifiers, standardising combat results, reducing the number of skills by making sure each of them covers a well-defined, but wide enough range of applications and avoiding niche skills like the plague, and so on. RM will always have a load of reference pages as long as the spells are presented in list format and the combat is resolved with individual weapons and critical tables - there's just no way around it. You can reduce the number of weapons in the core book, but beyond that, you are basically stuck with reducing the word count of the rules themselves.

Oh well. I guess it's easy for me to say - I don't design games, after all, I merely hack them for my own enjoyment

[GrumpyOldFart]

I think part of the problem is simply the nature of playtesting.

In a normal game, the GM is the final authority. Whatever answer he comes up with, that's the final answer, no matter how squirrely that answer may be. This puts the burden squarely on the GM to come up with some answer, and make it the best answer he can.

In a playtest, he can yell for help to someone above him. Therefore he does. I suspect some things that should have been "GM discretion" weren't simply because it was a playtest. That's a trap that the designers have to watch out for.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I would suggest that a free sample PDF (4-5 pages) be made available with a selection of low-level "basic" monsters and some common low-level spells on it be made available, ASAP.

It does seem to be an issue that is likely to turn people off, at least the impatient ones.

That shouldn't disrupt the printing scedule, cost virtually nothing (in fact I expect some forum members might like to do it...)

[5th Knight of Xar]

I would suggest that a free sample PDF (4-5 pages) be made available with a selection of low-level "basic" monsters and some common low-level spells on it be made available, ASAP.

It does seem to be an issue that is likely to turn people off, at least the impatient ones.

That shouldn't disrupt the printing scedule, cost virtually nothing (in fact I expect some forum members might like to do it...)

Impatient people have the excellent option to download the free beta versions, until the PDFs are ready on drivethrurpg

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Well, I'm pretty sure that if anyone is willing to produce for free (or so…) a simple, 4-5 pages, adventure for RMU, the ICE team would just love it and be willing to include it as a free download anywhere, including as part of the forums. So, any volunteer?

Heck, since it may be quite a lot of work for a single person, we could even make it a forum group effort! Have one person write a simple adventure story with simple NPCs, someone create the NPCs and creatures' stats, some draw a quick map, and someone create the first level (or so) pre-made PCs, and voilà!

[katastrophe]

Impatient people have the excellent option to download the free beta versions, until the PDFs are ready on drivethrurpg

Is that available on Drivethrurpg or some website? Are you saying that Joe Blow that isn't part of this Forum community and has signed up for the Beta has access to those documents, can you inform us where?

If not, then what exactly is Joe Blow that saw RMU on drivethurpg supposed to do once he gets the core book and realizes that he cannot do anything at all with it?

[5th Knight of Xar]

Impatient people have the excellent option to download the free beta versions, until the PDFs are ready on drivethrurpg

Is that available on Drivethrurpg or some website? Are you saying that Joe Blow that isn't part of this Forum community and has signed up for the Beta has access to those documents, can you inform us where?

If not, then what exactly is Joe Blow that saw RMU on drivethurpg supposed to do once he gets the core book and realizes that he cannot do anything at all with it?

So passive aggressive, I like your spirit.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Well, I'm pretty sure that if anyone is willing to produce for free (or so…) a simple, 4-5 pages, adventure for RMU, the ICE team would just love it and be willing to include it as a free download anywhere, including as part of the forums. So, any volunteer?

Heck, since it may be quite a lot of work for a single person, we could even make it a forum group effort! Have one person write a simple adventure story with simple NPCs, someone create the NPCs and creatures' stats, some draw a quick map, and someone create the first level (or so) pre-made PCs, and voilà!

im keen to contribute. depending on the setting. my strengths are in dungeon design. i actually have a "Secret Armoury" adventure Ive created recently that is generic enough to be used in a range of settings.
The adneture is called 'The Secret Armoury of Heqt', suits a party of 3-6 players.
id add pre generated characters with backgrounds too.
Pregenerated characters: Fleck the Burglar, Kromm the Barbarian, Tel the Paladin and Blackfang the Assassin.

the dungeon map is on roll20 but i have copies of the open source map. id need to add simple detail to the 11 rooms in the dungeon explaing the traps, treasure, monsters etc but that woudnt be too involved as iv put icon on the map and noted down specific relics and magic items in each location.

There is a paladin/knight NPC who recruits the parry to help him on his quest to find the a Secret Armoury that contains a cache of ancient relics that are needed to equip a small army in a future battle versus undead The larger story involves an evil cult of vampire worshippers who are working to resurrect an ncient cabal of vampire lords who have been magically trapped in magic stones called Soul Stones.

The adventure begins with the party looking for information about the Secret Armoury of Heqt. This requires research in a city library to locate maps to find the armoury. To find the maps needed the party must solve two riddles which gives clues to the map they need. Requires a role-playing encounter with the librarian to gain access to a restricted private guarded library and find the maps.

The party must then travel into the mountains (2-3 days from the city), locate a hidden entrance by decoding a series of runes/riddles and enter the dungeon/cave complex which is well guarded by undead (6 skeletons, 3 wights and 4 wraiths), 4 golems, 3 giant spiders and a Toad Monster near a lake filled with electric eels. They must also negotiate a number of traps (rolling boulder, collapsing bridge, poison darts and fire trap). The undead are ancestors of an ancient order of knights who guard the armoury and are armed with some of the magical relics (swords, shields and armour) that the party are sent to find and return to the paladin's temple.

The main encounter in the dungeon is with the Spirit Guide of Heqt who will put the party through a series of trials before she will assist them on their mission. There are 7 trials, some designed for paladins specifically but these could be completed by other professions also. The ideal setup is having a paladin in the party who is of the same order of knights - The Knights of Heqt.

Spirit Guide "Knight of Heqt you must pass the Trials of Heqt to show that you are worthy. If you fail you will be offered up as a sacrifice to the Red Moon Mage. You will become an immortal protector of the ancient relics of Heqt and you will remain here for eternity".
"Knight of Heqt do you trust your companions? Are they free of malice or greed? Yes? Then they too must be tested. If they are proven unworthy then they will be sacrificed to the creatures that inhabit the dark depths of the Sacred Waters of Heqt. This is a great honor!".
"Knight of Heqt, if you and your companions prove yourselves worthy then I will serve as your guide and give you what help I can to complete your quest".
The Spirit Guide invokes the seven ancient Trials of Heqt.
1) Combat
2) Lore
3) Might
4) Will 
5) Wisdom 
6) Courage
7) Power

The 7 Trials of Heqt. >>>> trials must be attempted in this order: Wisom 1st, Courage 2nd, Combat 7th/last

1) Test of Combat. A physical combat versus a spirit/enemy summoned by the guide [FINAL TRIAL FOR ALL WHO ENTER THE ARMOURY]
2) Test of Lore. Name the 3 Elemental Laws. the 3 Laws? Paladins order/religion [Paladin only]
3) Test of Might [Strength], remove the black orb from the fountain on the isle on the Sacred Lake [Any PC]
4) Test of Will [Self-Discipline], Stab an ally/draw 3 drops of blood into the sacred waters. with the the Quartz Dagger. Full OB. [Any PC]
5) Test of Wisdom [Intuition check to get a clue],  Riddle: Sometimes I shine, sometimes I’m dull, sometimes I am big, and sometimes I am small. I can be pointy, I can be curved, and don’t ask me questions because even though I’m sharp, I’m not smart enough to answer you. What am I? (Low Int check = half the riddle. High INT check and entire riddle with a clue)
Answer: A knife
6) Test of Courage. Retrieve the Quartz Dagger (green) from the Sacred Waters of Heqt. [Paladin only]
7) Test of Power. Channeling skill check/touch the Toad statue and make a channeling check. (Absurd/Lose all PP/statue by the Lake) [Paladin only]

Test of Combat (1) is the final test and Passing all the tests the party can avoid combat (or most combat). Failure in these will determine the strength/numbers of the enemies that will be sent against the party.

If they pass all the tests (still need to complete a trial by combat of some level) the Spirit Guide will be able to answer ONE yes/no question for each party member. 7 in total.

I made the test of wisdon more challening by only giving the half the riddle. if they didnt come up with the correct answer early on I gave them an INTUITION modified stat/manuvre check (Hard) to get a clue.

There are three laws, one gold, one silver and one iron. The golden law is full of cheer. The silver law is cold calm and clear. The iron law is harshly severe. What are their names?

Love is the golden law,
Full of cheer;
Justice, the silver law,
Cold, calm, and clear;
Anger, the iron law,
Harshly severe

RIDDLE ONE>>>
Yellow flame flickers
Shadows dance upon the wall
This grows ever strong.
>>> I am the law of gold, WHATS MY NAME? Love

RIDDLE TWO>>> For agony and spoil
    Of nations beat to dust,
For poisoned air and tortured soil
    And cold, commanded lust,
And every secret woe
    The shuddering waters saw—
Willed and fulfilled by high and low—
Let them relearn the Law:
>>> I am the law of silver, WHATS MY NAME? Justice

RIDDLE THREE>>> The eye of revenge
Forged in volcanoes of fire
An act of revengence
>>> I am the law of iron, WHATS MY NAME? Anger

The combat trials involves fighting a Toad Monster and 2-4 giant spirit knights which are animated suits of armour.

The number of trials that must be passed are up to the GM. id suggest 5-7. fail in too many quests and the party will be attacked by the protectors of the armoury (more animated spirit knights and Toad Monsters). These Trials of Heqt take place ina large undergound cavern which had a large lake at its centre and a narrow suspension bridge across it. I have the master map co leted in roll20.