Topic: Suggestion spell question

[Finwe]

I had doubts about the Suggestion spell. My players use it almost continuously, either to order the boss enemy to surrender, or to interrogate them (order them to respond with the truth), or for anything else. Do you put any limits on this spell?

[rdanhenry]

It covers one action. So, you'd get one truthful response, then he can lie.* Surrender would have to be done with assurances that he would not be harmed (otherwise it would be disallowed as self-destructive) under the RMU spell description; even under RM2, it still needs to be in his nature, so it wouldn't affect fight-to-the-death types. You need to speak a language that the target can understand or otherwise be able to communicate. Finally, it has quite a short range (10 feet) and allows a resistance roll, so keeping boss enemies at range and/or giving them an RR bonus vs. Essence somehow will be effective. It should be useful for things like getting past guard checkpoints ("These are not the dwarves you're looking for. Let us pass.") or similar short-term social interactions, but it should not be an all-purpose combat spell (not that it cannot be useful in combat, but it does sound like your players may be getting more benefit than they should). Also note that the caster does not know if his spell was resisted or not, so a crafty target may fake compliance where there is advantage in doing so, and there is no absolute guarantee that the interrogation subject did not lie.

* Thus allowing this 5th level spell to duplicate the Mentalist's 1st level Question spell.

[Finwe]

And what about "Charm Kind"? Can they use it to interrogate the enemy or collaborate with them in all aspects?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

It's also a suggestion, not an order one must obey. As such, it would probably be easily dismissed if it's too stupid, unrealistic, or too dangerous. Suggesting the enemies to surrender when they have the obvious upper hand for instance makes, well, probably too little sense that it would be considered (because of the spell) but dismissed. Same for suggesting enemies to give out important information when it's well-known their boss will just kill them if he learns so.
Usually, IMO, Suggestion works better with the help of other spells or skills, and little without. Suggesting you're actually an important person, for instance, may work well if you're wearing a shining full plate armour and exuding power, but less if you're wearing rags and looking like a beggar. As such, you may way to give the NPCs RR bonuses the least unrealistic it'd be for them to follow said suggestion.

And what about "Charm Kind"? Can they use it to interrogate the enemy or collaborate with them in all aspects?

The killer combination is Charm Kind, Seduction and Suggestion.

[rdanhenry]

"Suggestion" as in "hypnotic suggestion". The spell description does provide control to a considerable degree. The target "will follow" the suggestion unless it is completely alien to his nature (or in later editions, if it is self-destructive). Also, it applies to a single act, not a single thought or idea. You can make someone admit you to the ball, but he won't believe you're a VIP on account of a Suggesion spell, because that is not a act, but an attitude or belief.

As for Charm Kind, that merely makes the caster seem to be a good friend, so it depends on the type of information sought. A typical military type is not going to give up classified information just because he likes you. On the other hand, if you are trying to get the Duchess's maid to gossip about the lady's jewelry, she is likely to comply. In some cases, you might find the target willing to give up the information... if properly paid. Charm Kind, however, has a 100' range and if the enemy leader thinks his force is attacking a friend, he's likely to at least be ready to negotiate. It seems a likelier candidate for battlefield use, at least if the PCs haven't been unduly aggressive (in which case, making the enemy leader think you are a friend is likely to just make him feel betrayed).

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

"Suggestion" as in "hypnotic suggestion". The spell description does provide control to a considerable degree. The target "will follow" the suggestion unless it is completely alien to his nature (or in later editions, if it is self-destructive). Also, it applies to a single act, not a single thought or idea. You can make someone admit you to the ball, but he won't believe you're a VIP on account of a Suggesion spell, because that is not a act, but an attitude or belief.

I don't see your point, rdanhenry. Suggestion is an "hypnotic suggestion" based on a suggestion, not an order. You cannot "make someone admit you to the ball" though a "admit me to the ball" order; you may, though, through suggesting "this guy seems to be a VIP so I'd rather not make a fuss and admit him to the ball", which was my point.

That being said, I guess it depends on how you interpret "not completely alien" and how powerful you wish a level 5 spell to be but, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a bit bothered with giving it "almost" total mind control. And, apparently, so is the OP.

As for Charm Kind, that merely makes the caster seem to be a good friend, so it depends on the type of information sought. A typical military type is not going to give up classified information just because he likes you. On the other hand, if you are trying to get the Duchess's maid to gossip about the lady's jewelry, she is likely to comply. In some cases, you might find the target willing to give up the information... if properly paid. Charm Kind, however, has a 100' range and if the enemy leader thinks his force is attacking a friend, he's likely to at least be ready to negotiate. It seems a likelier candidate for battlefield use, at least if the PCs haven't been unduly aggressive (in which case, making the enemy leader think you are a friend is likely to just make him feel betrayed).

Didn't I say to combine Suggestion, Charm Kind and Seduction? People are more compelled ("susceptible") to suggestions (including "hypnotic" ones) when they feel friendly.

[jdale]

I don't see your point, rdanhenry. Suggestion is an "hypnotic suggestion" based on a suggestion, not an order. You cannot "make someone admit you to the ball" though a "admit me to the ball" order; you may, though, through suggesting "this guy seems to be a VIP so I'd rather not make a fuss and admit him to the ball", which was my point.

You have that backwards. The wording of the spell (RMSS version here) is "Target will follow a single suggested act that was not completely alien to him (e.g. no suicide, no blinding himself suggestions, etc.)."

It compels an action not a belief. "Admit me to the ball" is absolutely possible unless it is "completely alien to him" with the examples of "completely alien" being extreme personal harm. I would allow that to work unless the person you are asking would expect to be executed or maimed for doing so.

This is a higher level spell (7th on the Mentalist base list Mind Control) than Charm Kind (level 3) and it's less open-ended; suggestion is a single act whereas Charm Kind affects all their behavior for 10 min/lvl, and Suggestion has a lower range. As a higher level spell with a narrower application and worse parameters, it must be intended to be more potent in terms of what kind of behavior it can compel.


RMU adds as an additional example of "completely alien" (in addition to suicide and self-mutilation) "suggestions that a priest pray to an enemy god" but that's still a pretty extreme order.

[gog]

I had doubts about the Suggestion spell. My players use it almost continuously

Are they taking time to regain Power Points? The negative modifier for PP expenditure may be of use here, making things less possible - or needed a lot more prep time (time they can be targeted)