Author Topic: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??  (Read 3852 times)

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Offline Cormac Doyle

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Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« on: June 23, 2011, 06:09:31 AM »
Why is there only one human species?

There are often long running discussions about the reasons why a fantasy world should have elves, humans, dwarves, hobbits, orcs and many other hominids ... but here on Earth there have been quite a number of Hominids through history; and only one (Homo Sapiens Sapien - "humans") has survived ...

Perhaps if we look at our own history, it might explain the differences?

For Example, there is evidence that Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus co-existed relatively peacefully for long periods of time in the same areas (at least 10,000 years in the Middle East), but although Erectus was physically larger, stronger and faster ... Homo Sapiens had more mental capacity for social interaction and planning. There is even evidence of cross-breeding between the two ... but eventually, Erectus died out ...

Erectus = anti-social = small groups = illness/injury to a small number would wipe out the group
Sapiens = social = larger groups = illness/injury to small number could be survived

Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 07:09:10 AM »
Most RPG settings also include 3 factors not seen on earth (or, at least not in the scales seen in RPG settings).

1) Long term impassible geographic barriers to create or preserve genetic variations.

2) Highly mutagenic factors (Genetic Engineering via science or Magic, radiation, demonic influence, gods, etc)

3) Cross Dimensional or Interplanetary Travel.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 10:28:52 AM »
Well, we don't know why. During most of human evolution, there have been multiple human species. There's plenty of speculation on why modern humans became an exception, but nobody really knows.

Even if one accepts the idea that it is something we ourselves did, that intelligent species will eventually come into sufficient conflict to leave only one survivor, this still took longer than many fantasy worlds have been populated.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 12:02:31 PM »
Quote
that intelligent species will eventually come into sufficient conflict to leave only one survivor, this still took longer than many fantasy worlds have been populated.

Most fantasy worlds give no information on its early history, so i have no idea how you support this assertion.

Runequest Glorantha and Middle Earth are two exceptions, not the norm. 

Even in a game world with good background, such as Forgotton Realms and Shadow World, we get vague stories that basically follow the line of an ancient species that enslaved the lesser species and then fell, leaving the scattered slave races to inherient the world.  But pre history going back the 300k years needed to get a solid grip on a species orgins?  Not common at all.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 01:01:27 PM »
That's my point, many fantasy worlds don't have 300k+ years of prehistory. The various species didn't evolve, they are the products of gods. This is the influence of real-world mythology, which rarely comes anywhere close to capturing the true scope of our universe. Often these worlds are populated with "monstrous" threats that make the survival of early stone-age humans implausible, so that even if background is unspecified, one is forced to assume at least a high stone age culture with agriculture (to allow sufficient population concentration for armies) and fortification as the start of intelligent life.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 02:13:07 PM »
If your point is that "halflings were made by this god" is a good reason for their existence, I can agre with that.  As far as a game is concerned, a bit more info needs to be wrapped around it (a god, religion and creation myth).

My point is most games don't even bother to go that far.  Nothing should exist in a game world without reasons, be they magical orgins, godly orgins or the process of evolution forces, or any combination of plus numerous others not listed.

I like other species than human, when they make sense.  I do not like 5 or more "races" that can all interbreed, indicating they are all really the same species with variable phenotypes.

There are no half neanderthal/half humans because they were different species.  Just like there are no half gorrila/half lion.  Like wise half elves and half orcs and half ogres and half dwarved and all the other nauseating half races found in many games are silly.  At best, a munchkins twist.

Several species on the same planet is not the problem, its the lack of detail AND that they are all just exaggerated humans.  If we want exaggerated humans, then play an exaggerated human.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 02:26:40 PM »
Some theorists believe neanderthal and Erectus mixed with homo sapiens and were drowned out to become mere echoes of minor genetic variations within the main line. . . .other scientists call that crazy talk. . .but it's not resolved either way, AFAIK

I agree that in a world with casual half this and half that, over any reasonably long period of time you end up with "The people on the north continent tend to be tall, skinny, and long lived" "Why" "They're 1/16 or 1/32 elven blood, all that's left of the elvish race.".
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 03:07:54 PM »
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This is the influence of real-world mythology, which rarely comes anywhere close to capturing the true scope of our universe.

This is complicated by the fact that denial doesn't work nearly as well when an expert can analyze what you do and definitively declare, yes or no, this is or is not the product of channeling magic. To some extent, that gives your mythology present day consequences, if "the Gods" involved in the creation are the same "the Gods" you get spells from. It's like a politician's voting record.

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I agree that in a world with casual half this and half that, over any reasonably long period of time you end up with "The people on the north continent tend to be tall, skinny, and long lived" "Why" "They're 1/16 or 1/32 elven blood, all that's left of the elvish race.".

Exactly. You can start out with wide varieties that can still interbreed if you're fairly close to the beginning of a radiant evolutionary period. But before long ("long" in evolutionary terms) it will settle out into 1) distinct species that cannot interbreed, or at best can produce "mules", and 2) one hybrid species descendant of all those species capable of interbreeding that did.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 04:53:46 PM »
It isn't that they can't interbreed because they are different species; they are different species because they don't interbreed. This may be biological incompatibility, psychological factors (Dwarf/Elf couples just don't attract -- this will frequently mark the point of speciation in reality insofar as such a marker is meaningful), or physical separation (I can't mate with a Barsoomian woman because I can't get to her, even though John Carter proved us interfertile).

If you have humans, a species that is interfertile with humans but dwells underground and where the women have beards, and a species that only wants to live among trees and can settle in tropical rainforests easily due to disease resistance, they will tend to be physically separated and culturally, if not biologically, disinclined to mate under normal circumstances.

But you can still have rare exceptions. And magic can get around physical issues in those cases, so that still doesn't matter. That assume you impose real-world genetics on a fantasy world in the first place; otherwise, don't let your wife mate with your bull or you'll need to build a labyrinth.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:17:15 PM »
If they can interbreed, they are seperate races/ethnic groups.  I disagree with this phenotype approach, and keep them seperate species that cannot mate and bear live young.

As far as humans not mating when they could: that doesnt happen.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2011, 10:27:14 AM »
I'd both agree and disagree, it is possible, but not over the time scales involved. . .i.e. humans and elves don't (often) breed. . .even if it's a freak thing, over evolutionary time scales the genetic drift of both populations eventually forms a merged population base. So it takes 10,000 years, or 100,000. . .it eventually happens, unless you have an actual biological full-stop, like all halfbreeds are sterile. . .If humans and elves can cross without complications, then the human populations that border the elves will be hybrid over time, as will the elvish populations in contact with humans. . .give that a few thousand years and every human will have an elf somewhere back in the tree, and every elf will have a human back there somewhere. (Every South African Swazi is in some way a cousin to every Alaskan Inuit, despite their wide geographic distance and the number of barriers to contact between them, over 5 to 6 digit time scales, the distances and barriers are effectively nonexistent).
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 12:21:49 PM »
One must also remember that interfertility is not a simple either/or matter. There's a good deal of practical difference between situations in which 100% of elves can interbreed with 100% of humans and one where 10% of elves can interbreed with 10% of humans or one in which 2% of elves can interbreed with 3% of humans with reduced chances of conception and increased chances of miscarriage.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2011, 02:13:24 PM »
A +100 resistance to poison and disease, even watered down, vs pre-industrial child mortality rates from 50-90% makes even ratios like that a win-win. . .that least game usable disease immunity is like the super gene in mundane existence. . . .if it can get into the human population at even a 0.1% success rate, in 10,000 years every single human will have it, because disease resistance benefit to that scale is like having constant access to perfect medical treatment at all times without any effort at all.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 04:37:39 PM »
If the disease resistance is genetic (not true in, say, Middle-Earth), dominant, mixes with specific human genes without causing problems, doesn't depend for success on environmental factors (maybe there's a reason the elves live in forests all the time), and is simple enough to pass on a single gene, sure. Discounting geographically isolated groups (which, admittedly, over 10,000 years is a small sample in our world, but fantasy worlds often have better isolating barriers), of course.

Selective infanticide would also prevent interbreeding from getting very far.

Also note that 10% humans compatible with 10% elves in terms of biological potential for interbreeding does not mean a 1% success rate, or even 0.1%. If the majority of those humans are concentrated in Europe and the majority of those Elves are concentrated in South America, the rate would be much lower, while if they were both concentrated in northern Europe, the rate could be significantly higher.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 06:46:26 PM »
Hey, I'm all for putting the elves on the other side of the game world.  Then we never have to see them.  Unless magic transport easily over comes those mighty barries previously mentioned.  Teleport anyone?  Fly spells?

Why sin't disease resitance genetic?  Half elves get a big boost.

Scientist estimate that at one point in history about 60-70k years ago, humanity went through a bottle neck were perhaps 20k humans TOTAL survived (the super volcano of Sumatra if ya want search, great read, super scary stuff).  Inbreeding is frowned upon, but after a certain population density, it doesn't really mean much.  A latent genetic disorder waiting to pop up in one in a hundred thousand or more, sure, but inbreeding won't cripple a population.  There is no need to kill babies.

Now, if we humans were just a little less adaptable, then perhaps destinct species of humaniods might have survived over time via well defined habitats, ignoring natural world wide disaters such as super volcanoes and killer asteroids...except we are so adaptable that no ecosystem has proven immune to human occupation and development, except under the seas of course.  In time we will develop there too, along with space. 

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 10:55:27 PM »
Why sin't disease resitance genetic?  Half elves get a big boost.

Anything from being rooted in divine favor to (as in Middle-Earth) elves and humans differing in the types of their souls. You can make it genetic if you want, in your world, but that's hardly the only way to go.

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A latent genetic disorder waiting to pop up in one in a hundred thousand or more, sure, but inbreeding won't cripple a population.

inbreeding != interbreeding
This has nothing to do with anything anyone else has posted to this point.

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There is no need to kill babies.

There is if you want to kill all elves, as you claim. Look at those pointy ears. Clearly not "one of us".

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Now, if we humans were just a little less adaptable, then perhaps destinct species of humaniods might have survived over time via well defined habitats, ignoring natural world wide disaters such as super volcanoes and killer asteroids...except we are so adaptable that no ecosystem has proven immune to human occupation and development, except under the seas of course.  In time we will develop there too, along with space.

Humans only establish large populations in unfavored areas where they can alter the habitat. Humans deal with forests but cutting them down to create grasslands, not by being excellent forest-dwellers. Some humans live in forests, but their populations are low. Against a similarly (or more) advanced people that was as intelligent and specialized for forest living, they would be out-competed in that environment. Humans live in arctic and desert environments, but marginally. A specialized intelligent species there would outdo humans. As for underground dwelling, that is very rare and barely scratches the surface when it is done, and so far as I am aware, only done as a form of fortification, with the food obtained mainly from the surface. No living on cave lizards and fungal forests or whatever dwarves do to keep their cities fed.

Humans have managed to live almost everywhere, because they didn't have comparable competition. Even with modern technology, many places are marginally habitable. For a people with similar intelligence, technology, and magic (in a fantasy setting), which found those places a pleasing environment, such areas would be easily held against the sort of population drift that historically sent humans into such places. A concerted effort by a large, organized human civilization could be a threat, but then the ,e.g., desert-folk would present a counterthreat to that civilization, which would, of necessity, be advanced enough to negotiate with to avoid a conflict that might destroy either or both of them.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2011, 12:24:04 AM »
In a fantasy world you can do anything, even be right about everything.  GM's find motivation in a host of things.

As far as killing all elves: imposible as they live in to many imaginations.  Elves are here to stay.

Fortunately, not on Earth.  We humans own the ball.  All of it, every environment.  Even small populations count.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2011, 09:25:07 AM »
Still feel that you're thinking small time scales Rdan. . .if the two populations can cross, then they will, unless totally kept apart somehow, mix. . Genetic drift in two populations might seem to take a long time to us, as we live in people time scale, but over long time scale, none of the barriers you refer to will work. . .it has to be an absolute barrier of some sort, like "All crosses are sterile" or "Any elf that leaves the fey woods dies, all humans that enter the woods die".

Simply because any percentage rate of intermingling multiplied by infinity equals 100%. it doesn't matter how small you make the percentage, it just extends the time frame out, but eventually, it happens.

i.e. if in a fantasy game world there are two races that can breed, you are playing in that time of process as the two populations are merging (which may be so slow as to be imperceptible to the players).

Though of course as you said, merger is only one method of ending up with a singular genetic pool, the other method is one or the other side dying out. (I guess in fantasy or sci fi they could "leave" like the elves in ME did).
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Offline providence13

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2011, 10:57:47 AM »
Maybe the elves 'leaving' is just a romantic notion.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Why is there only one race of Humans on Earth ??
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2011, 12:27:51 PM »
"Mommy, what happened to all of the Neanderthals?"

Hush and eat your cousin.  :o
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