Topic: What are stats, and why do we need them?

[markc]

The question I really wanted to read when I saw this topic wasn't 'what if we go to six stats?' but rather:
What are stats, and why do we need them?

Sorry I could not edit the thread author from me to you.
MDC

[David Johansen]

Stats are the general innate capabilities of characters.  A broader stat range and multiple stats per skill makes well rounded characters more desirable than min / maxed one trick ponies.  They also differentiate individuals within a race and a profession.

Honestly, I think changing the stat set and range is one of the things you just about can't do while keeping a game's name.  One thing I notice in these discussions is that some people don't really want to be playing Rolemaster.  The name comes with certain expectations and key structures.

That being said, I can see a potential no stats characters option being good for a Run Out the Guns style game and quick npcs.  As it is I generally assume a 90 in key stats and 2 ranks per level in their main skills.  It reduces most NPC stating to 15 + Prof bonus + 10 x rank.

[markc]

 Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
  But that is just me.
MDC

[vroomfogle]

Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
  But that is just me.
MDC

I'm with you Marc - I also ditched the requirements for 90s.   PC's tend to be more like the population at large rather then enhanced super-men.   I think RMSS pushed potential stats way too high to the point where it's silly.

[markc]

Vroomfogle;
 I have also considered doing a basic break down for professions for various races and locations. Such as Elf: 05% No-Profession, 35% Arms, 35% Semi Spell, 25% Arcane, Pure and Hybrid Spell casters. Human: No-Profession 40%, Arms 30%, Semi 15%, Arcane, Pure and Hybride Casters 15%.
 I think you get the idea and this gives GM's and players some good info in a small space.


MDC

[Moriarty]

I am certainly not in any way against stats in RM, but I thought the question might lead to useful discussion.

To those of you who think 90 stat should be normal max for characters:
One thing I don't understand is why bother with stats at all, if all they add to your game is a 10 bonus to some skills? And 10 is assuming all stats for the skills are maxed, normally it would be more like 5 bonus with multiple stats.
The contribution from skills ranks bonus alone is 10 times that, and that is only from the first 10 ranks.
High level characters can surely break 100 or sometimes even 150 in a skill, why go through so much trouble calculating stat bonuses from fluctuating multiple stats, if the stat contribution to skill is only 5-10% ?

[Marc R]

RM2 that's -25 to +25, before you toss racial mods in.
RMSS That's -10 to +10 per stat, x3 = -30 to +30. . .before you toss racial mods in.

[smug]

Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
  But that is just me.
MDC

50/51 in all stats wouldn't be normal, though (wordplay intended)...

I do agree that 90 in Prime stats isn't necessary; I like it enough as a player option, to ameliorate the foibles of the dice, although I'd maybe extend it to so that you could apply to one prime stat and one non-prime stat (if desired).

For some reason, I really don't like point-buy in RM. I don't mind it in GURPS and Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, but it doesn't seem right to me for RM. However, as mentioned elsewhere, stat generation is traditionally an area where options are offered.

[David Johansen]

I really love the blend of point buy and random in RMSS.  Best of both worlds.  On the other hand it's probably more complex than it needs to be.  I think trimming needless complexity for complexity's sake makes sense.

Who rolls for the number of points in RMSS?  We always just use the maximum result of 660.

The 90 minimum rule is also an easy thing to drop and wouldn't hurt the system at all.

[yammahoper]

Stats are not needed, only the modifier is.  However, there are game mechanics were stats can be useful, like Co drain, or a spell that Drains St.

Of course, the could drain mods to, but there is greater latitude with stat drain than mod drain, were the impact is immediate and often severe.

I could do without stats entierly and live with a system that purchases stat mods.

[David Johansen]

The more I think about it, the more I think a uniform progression of percentile stats with racial bonuses being added to them directly would be a good thing.  Not the least it would tone down the impact of stat stacking and stat penalties.

[markc]

 I use the roll 10d10+600 method and I find it works great. The roll is also open ended so it is a bit different than the basic rules.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

RMSS That's -10 to +10 per stat, x3 = -30 to +30. . .before you toss racial mods in.

Don't forget Talents/Flaws to +/- 8. And the racial mods go -8 to +6, so the extremes are -26 to +24. Not likely to get that x3 except for something like Quickness for DB or a RR using one stat, although a number of categories use Agility twice, and that's one where a +6 racial mod is possible. That's just considering the RMSR races; additional races might have even more extreme values.

[Marc R]

Plenty of X/X/Y skills, though you'll rarely get the x3, the x2 comes up a lot.

[pastaav]

I think just about the only reason to have stats and potential stats is to make the first level ups feel like great achievements. On the other hand the temporary stats is one of the reasons why first level characters feel so impotent.

Having fixed stats and no stat gains as optional rules would be great for those that prefer a bit of frontloaded characters and less bookkeeping. Going as far as making the stat gain into the optional rule is breaking very clearly with existing RM, but it might be worth it if the pages the core book can be spent on more catching things.

As a side note I think the rules for stat gains should include the aspect of aging.

[Cory Magel]

From a designers point of view they are a mechanic that allow you to tweak the balance of many things within a system.

If you start asking "Why have stats?" then we can move on to "Why have skills?" and eventually arrive at "Why have rules?".  In which case you can go find one of those systems that don't have rules and are purely made up off the top of everyones heads.  In which case we'll start the countdown to...

"I hit you pretty good!"
"No you didn't!"
"Yes I did!"
"You missed me!"
"No, I took your arm off!"
"Did not"
"Did too!"
"Prove it!"
"...I'm the GM..."
"Well I quit!"

[yammahoper]

I think just about the only reason to have stats and potential stats is to make the first level ups feel like great achievements. On the other hand the temporary stats is one of the reasons why first level characters feel so impotent.

Having fixed stats and no stat gains as optional rules would be great for those that prefer a bit of frontloaded characters and less bookkeeping. Going as far as making the stat gain into the optional rule is breaking very clearly with existing RM, but it might be worth it if the pages the core book can be spent on more catching things.

As a side note I think the rules for stat gains should include the aspect of aging.

It would just as easy to have temp mods and potential mods.  Besides, the mods would become the stat scores.  I'm sure the wording would be "total your St, Co and Sd stat to get the total stat mod..."  Or somethiong simular.

[yammahoper]

From a designers point of view they are a mechanic that allow you to tweak the balance of many things within a system.

If you start asking "Why have stats?" then we can move on to "Why have skills?" and eventually arrive at "Why have rules?".  In which case you can go find one of those systems that don't have rules and are purely made up off the top of everyones heads.  In which case we'll start the countdown to...

"I hit you pretty good!"
"No you didn't!"
"Yes I did!"
"You missed me!"
"No, I took your arm off!"
"Did not"
"Did too!"
"Prove it!"
"...I'm the GM..."
"Well I quit!"

Nice straw man arguement.

[vroomfogle]

Nice straw man arguement.

Actually it's a variation of the argument of the slippery slope:
If W is done that will lead to X, which will lead to Y which will lead to Z, therefore we shouldn't do W.

The original question wasn't actually "Why have stats", but rather "What are they and why do do need them?"   A question that I think was asked more for elucidation of the principles involved rather then a suggestion that they should be ditched.

[Marc R]

I suspect that there are, at root, three reasons for stats.

First, they offer a baseline mechanism for certain things not covered by skills. . .unless you really want to go all out with skills like:

Encumbrance
Initiative
DB

And more in that vein.

Second, there are races, which gain a lot of their variation in stats.

Third, it's the primary layer of skill/task similarity. . .guns are like acrobatics are like bows are like dancing is like fencing is like the hurdles is like juggling. . .all reflected in agility.

I'll horribly miss-quote Defendi, but hopefully catch the gist with:

"Rolemaster is great for it's splendid, almost arcane structure of complex interactions and interrelations."

So it's not just an archer with 10 ranks
it's not just an archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter for +20
it's not just an archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter with +20 and a strength +5
it's not just archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter with a +20, a strength +5 and an agility +7 applied twice.
It's not just an archer with 10 ranks whos a fighter +20, strength +5, Agility +7 applied twice and. . .he's a dwarf.

Toss some talents in, a quality bow, magic bonus, tango. . .

Each layer you add that has a different +/- axis, does not ADD a layer of detail / granularity / variation. . .it multiplies. . .

Stat, Skill Ranks and Professional bonus is expressed as X + Y + Z, but it generates variation as X * Y * Z across all possible skills/tasks.