Topic: How much Math is "Too Much Math"

[David Johansen]

Bah!  They should play Lands of Adventure where you work out the leverage force of a weapon based on its length and calculate skills with quadratic equations sometime.

[yammahoper]

Bah!  They should play Lands of Adventure where you work out the leverage force of a weapon based on its length and calculate skills with quadratic equations sometime.

I understand finding one of the four copies of that game if very hard, cuz the rest are buried under 15 years of shelf dust.

Simplicity does not mean loest common denominator nor stupid.  Simple is normally the right idea.

[Cory Magel]

Bah!  They should play Lands of Adventure where you work out the leverage force of a weapon based on its length and calculate skills with quadratic equations sometime.

Which is almost my point. They'll be playing something else.

[David Johansen]

Well, that's part of the problem already right?  People who can't pass third grade math are already playing something else.  So if we're stuck with the educated and intelligent gamers why restrict ourselves from simple and elegant solutions that involve a little math?

My complaint about averaging has always been the hanging decimal results.  I hate those things.  Very untidy! Definitely one of the reasons I still prefer Spacemaster to my own Galaxies in Shadow

[Marc R]

Simple and elegant are great, but experience has indicated that adding any amount of numbers is fine, multiplying and dividing by whole numbers is fine, but 150% or 2/3 is asking too much.

[David Johansen]

GURPS uses 150% damage multipliers heavily and seems to have its niche.

[Marc R]

I love 150%. . .lots of people seem to hate doing "math".

[Cory Magel]

Well, that's part of the problem already right?  People who can't pass third grade math are already playing something else.  So if we're stuck with the educated and intelligent gamers why restrict ourselves from simple and elegant solutions that involve a little math?

Because I understand the business and marketing side of the equation.  If you are a business man you want to sell your product to a million idiots, not a thousand geniuses.

I hate the fact that most consumers are sheep and incapable of determining the fact that they are being herded into buying something inferior simply because it's the intellectual equivalent of "shiny".  But if you are a business man, or someone in marketing, it's gospel (and I've mentioned on these boards before my opinion of the collective human race suffers due to that fact).

I really don't like it.  I often agree with the principle of what people are talking about here... but if you want your product to be successful you better be ready to whip out the shiny objects.

[David Johansen]

The last time I "whipped out my shiney objects" I spent the night in jail

No, I know the limitations, believe me, that's one of the reasons I generally design simpler games.  Yes I have a big fat d% fantasy game on my hard drive but most people just don't want the "complexity".

Actually if we ever do come around to a revision I have a fairly big collection of skill and stat blurbs already written. 

[Marc R]

You are cross threading. . . .

Seriously, is 125% or 150% so scary, or is it really just too much to ask?

[Cory Magel]

You are cross threading. . . .

Seriously, is 125% or 150% so scary, or is it really just too much to ask?

I love the "I don't want to have to figure out 2d100..."  I mean, really? You can't do the mathematical equivalent of x5? Are you a gamer???

[David Johansen]

Do you know how many scaling issues can be solved in game design with a little well applied multiplication?

Mind you, some effects can be duplicated with additional rolls but even so, I think rping with AI's would sure help to get around some rules design issues.  But then even if you sit the CPUs around a table and play someone'll tell you you're just playing a computer game.

[Marc R]

I'm honestly asking. . . .

I get why RM1 to RM2 the -20 was changed from -20% to -20, as with a stack of modifiers, the order in which you took them mattered if they were subjective -20% and didn't matter if they were objective -20. .  .

But do gamers, in the market today, find something like 66% or 125% just too much math to do?

[David Johansen]

Yeah, I'm afraid so.  Schools haven't focussed on fundamentals for a long time now here in North America.  My son's in grade three and I overheard him telling another parent how they wouldn't be doing flash cards or spelling lists in his class because he wants it to be a safe environment for learning that won't harm the child's self esteem.

Yeah, the future's lookin' really bright...

[markc]

I'm honestly asking. . . .

I get why RM1 to RM2 the -20 was changed from -20% to -20, as with a stack of modifiers, the order in which you took them mattered if they were subjective -20% and didn't matter if they were objective -20. .  .

But do gamers, in the market today, find something like 66% or 125% just too much math to do?

 If it is IMHO you just have a spot on the sheet where it is already worked out so you do not have to do it that often.
MDC

[Marc R]

Excel fill ins can be quadratic equations or differential calculus, and nobody using them would care if the work was done for them.

But if an effect was +33% concussion hits. . .seemingly not so big a deal in chargen as it's done once, or once per level up. . .but on damage? "You mean I have to figure out 33% of 13 and add it to 13?" seems problematic for some people on the fly repeatedly during combat.

It also does curve back to why RM1 to RM2 got rid of that. . .if you have 20% damage reduction, and I have 30% damage increase, which gets applied first. . .yours 10-2=8+2=10 vs mine 10+3=13-2=11 creates a lot of room for problems.

[pastaav]

I think it is all about complexity compared to the believed benefit. If the rules give pedagogic examples and makes the player feel the complexity is motivated then you can get away with anything. RM never had much math in really, but the math that was there had no RM book that tried to explain it with good examples and even more important there was no real motivation. People with higher education liked what they saw and said...this is how I would model stuff, while the rest looked it did not get the fine design points and said needless complexity. 

[rdanhenry]

Because I understand the business and marketing side of the equation.  If you are a business man you want to sell your product to a million idiots, not a thousand geniuses.

That's the dream. The reality is that unless you've millions to throw into advertising, you have no hope of changing the fact that the million idiots will be buying D&D if they buy an RPG at all.

So if you can't become filthy, filthy rich, how about commercial survival? A jackal doesn't survive by being a lion, it survives by being the best jackal it can be. ICE needs to decide what niche it is going after and fill the heck out that niche. And remember, people who can do math are more likely to have some money to spend on games even after they grow up.

[Cory Magel]

I think RM will be more successful than it has been in the past now that there's someone else at the wheel.  The first and second incarnations of ICE had the buck stopping at the same person and, as much as there were a myriad of issues facing the company, there was one major problem that ensured RM would slowly decline in commercial viability both times.  I won't bother getting into what exactly that was, but suffice to say I don't see it happening again with the third incarnation of "ICE" (i.e. Guild Comp Pub).

There will likely be some hurdles in traditional marketing when you have a print on demand product, but at least someone will be actually thinking about marketing in the first place.  For example, a booth at GenCon is actually fairly reasonable.  For a couple thousand dollars you could pick up a 10'x15' footprint in the merchant room.  As far as manning the booth there are a select few people that could be counted on to actually show up and man the booth (if they commit to go) so long as there was something provided to stock it.  Showing up to GenCon is going to get you some minor publicity right off the bat.  The same people volunteering to man the booth could also potentially run an event, hopefully something at least attempting to reach for the clamor that Run Out The Guns caused.

[rdanhenry]

Right. But you need some publicity/advertising to carve out a (relatively) small niche. That is not going to give you the ability to compete head-to-head with D&D for "the masses" in fantasy RPG gaming. You need something to appeal to the ones who will consider trying something else in the first place. "We can handle three digit numbers" sort of subtle elitism might actually be the trick. Unless they find out about HERO, in which case they'll never consider Rolemaster the game for people who can do math again.