Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: markc on January 18, 2011, 01:04:12 PM
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The question I really wanted to read when I saw this topic wasn't 'what if we go to six stats?' but rather:
What are stats, and why do we need them?
Sorry I could not edit the thread author from me to you.
MDC
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Stats are the general innate capabilities of characters. A broader stat range and multiple stats per skill makes well rounded characters more desirable than min / maxed one trick ponies. They also differentiate individuals within a race and a profession.
Honestly, I think changing the stat set and range is one of the things you just about can't do while keeping a game's name. One thing I notice in these discussions is that some people don't really want to be playing Rolemaster. The name comes with certain expectations and key structures.
That being said, I can see a potential no stats characters option being good for a Run Out the Guns style game and quick npcs. As it is I generally assume a 90 in key stats and 2 ranks per level in their main skills. It reduces most NPC stating to 15 + Prof bonus + 10 x rank.
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Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
But that is just me.
MDC
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Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
But that is just me.
MDC
I'm with you Marc - I also ditched the requirements for 90s. PC's tend to be more like the population at large rather then enhanced super-men. I think RMSS pushed potential stats way too high to the point where it's silly.
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Vroomfogle;
I have also considered doing a basic break down for professions for various races and locations. Such as Elf: 05% No-Profession, 35% Arms, 35% Semi Spell, 25% Arcane, Pure and Hybrid Spell casters. Human: No-Profession 40%, Arms 30%, Semi 15%, Arcane, Pure and Hybride Casters 15%.
I think you get the idea and this gives GM's and players some good info in a small space.
MDC
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I am certainly not in any way against stats in RM, but I thought the question might lead to useful discussion.
To those of you who think 90 stat should be normal max for characters:
One thing I don't understand is why bother with stats at all, if all they add to your game is a 10 bonus to some skills? And 10 is assuming all stats for the skills are maxed, normally it would be more like 5 bonus with multiple stats.
The contribution from skills ranks bonus alone is 10 times that, and that is only from the first 10 ranks.
High level characters can surely break 100 or sometimes even 150 in a skill, why go through so much trouble calculating stat bonuses from fluctuating multiple stats, if the stat contribution to skill is only 5-10% ?
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RM2 that's -25 to +25, before you toss racial mods in.
RMSS That's -10 to +10 per stat, x3 = -30 to +30. . .before you toss racial mods in.
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Wow I assume 50 in stats as people are normal. But then I also have thrown out the idea that a profession has 90's in these stats to be that profession. IMHO all "fighter"'s do not have at least 90's in St and Co, IIRC those are the stats it just does not make sense to me to require that for PC creation or NPC creation.
But that is just me.
MDC
50/51 in all stats wouldn't be normal, though (wordplay intended)...
I do agree that 90 in Prime stats isn't necessary; I like it enough as a player option, to ameliorate the foibles of the dice, although I'd maybe extend it to so that you could apply to one prime stat and one non-prime stat (if desired).
For some reason, I really don't like point-buy in RM. I don't mind it in GURPS and Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, but it doesn't seem right to me for RM. However, as mentioned elsewhere, stat generation is traditionally an area where options are offered.
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I really love the blend of point buy and random in RMSS. Best of both worlds. On the other hand it's probably more complex than it needs to be. I think trimming needless complexity for complexity's sake makes sense.
Who rolls for the number of points in RMSS? We always just use the maximum result of 660.
The 90 minimum rule is also an easy thing to drop and wouldn't hurt the system at all.
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Stats are not needed, only the modifier is. However, there are game mechanics were stats can be useful, like Co drain, or a spell that Drains St.
Of course, the could drain mods to, but there is greater latitude with stat drain than mod drain, were the impact is immediate and often severe.
I could do without stats entierly and live with a system that purchases stat mods.
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The more I think about it, the more I think a uniform progression of percentile stats with racial bonuses being added to them directly would be a good thing. Not the least it would tone down the impact of stat stacking and stat penalties.
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I use the roll 10d10+600 method and I find it works great. The roll is also open ended so it is a bit different than the basic rules.
MDC
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RMSS That's -10 to +10 per stat, x3 = -30 to +30. . .before you toss racial mods in.
Don't forget Talents/Flaws to +/- 8. And the racial mods go -8 to +6, so the extremes are -26 to +24. Not likely to get that x3 except for something like Quickness for DB or a RR using one stat, although a number of categories use Agility twice, and that's one where a +6 racial mod is possible. That's just considering the RMSR races; additional races might have even more extreme values.
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Plenty of X/X/Y skills, though you'll rarely get the x3, the x2 comes up a lot.
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I think just about the only reason to have stats and potential stats is to make the first level ups feel like great achievements. On the other hand the temporary stats is one of the reasons why first level characters feel so impotent.
Having fixed stats and no stat gains as optional rules would be great for those that prefer a bit of frontloaded characters and less bookkeeping. Going as far as making the stat gain into the optional rule is breaking very clearly with existing RM, but it might be worth it if the pages the core book can be spent on more catching things.
As a side note I think the rules for stat gains should include the aspect of aging.
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From a designers point of view they are a mechanic that allow you to tweak the balance of many things within a system.
If you start asking "Why have stats?" then we can move on to "Why have skills?" and eventually arrive at "Why have rules?". In which case you can go find one of those systems that don't have rules and are purely made up off the top of everyones heads. In which case we'll start the countdown to...
"I hit you pretty good!"
"No you didn't!"
"Yes I did!"
"You missed me!"
"No, I took your arm off!"
"Did not"
"Did too!"
"Prove it!"
"...I'm the GM..."
"Well I quit!"
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I think just about the only reason to have stats and potential stats is to make the first level ups feel like great achievements. On the other hand the temporary stats is one of the reasons why first level characters feel so impotent.
Having fixed stats and no stat gains as optional rules would be great for those that prefer a bit of frontloaded characters and less bookkeeping. Going as far as making the stat gain into the optional rule is breaking very clearly with existing RM, but it might be worth it if the pages the core book can be spent on more catching things.
As a side note I think the rules for stat gains should include the aspect of aging.
It would just as easy to have temp mods and potential mods. Besides, the mods would become the stat scores. I'm sure the wording would be "total your St, Co and Sd stat to get the total stat mod..." Or somethiong simular.
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From a designers point of view they are a mechanic that allow you to tweak the balance of many things within a system.
If you start asking "Why have stats?" then we can move on to "Why have skills?" and eventually arrive at "Why have rules?". In which case you can go find one of those systems that don't have rules and are purely made up off the top of everyones heads. In which case we'll start the countdown to...
"I hit you pretty good!"
"No you didn't!"
"Yes I did!"
"You missed me!"
"No, I took your arm off!"
"Did not"
"Did too!"
"Prove it!"
"...I'm the GM..."
"Well I quit!"
Nice straw man arguement.
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Nice straw man arguement.
Actually it's a variation of the argument of the slippery slope:
If W is done that will lead to X, which will lead to Y which will lead to Z, therefore we shouldn't do W.
The original question wasn't actually "Why have stats", but rather "What are they and why do do need them?" A question that I think was asked more for elucidation of the principles involved rather then a suggestion that they should be ditched.
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I suspect that there are, at root, three reasons for stats.
First, they offer a baseline mechanism for certain things not covered by skills. . .unless you really want to go all out with skills like:
Encumbrance
Initiative
DB
And more in that vein.
Second, there are races, which gain a lot of their variation in stats.
Third, it's the primary layer of skill/task similarity. . .guns are like acrobatics are like bows are like dancing is like fencing is like the hurdles is like juggling. . .all reflected in agility.
I'll horribly miss-quote Defendi, but hopefully catch the gist with:
"Rolemaster is great for it's splendid, almost arcane structure of complex interactions and interrelations."
So it's not just an archer with 10 ranks
it's not just an archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter for +20
it's not just an archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter with +20 and a strength +5
it's not just archer with 10 ranks who's a fighter with a +20, a strength +5 and an agility +7 applied twice.
It's not just an archer with 10 ranks whos a fighter +20, strength +5, Agility +7 applied twice and. . .he's a dwarf.
Toss some talents in, a quality bow, magic bonus, tango. . .
Each layer you add that has a different +/- axis, does not ADD a layer of detail / granularity / variation. . .it multiplies. . .
Stat, Skill Ranks and Professional bonus is expressed as X + Y + Z, but it generates variation as X * Y * Z across all possible skills/tasks.
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Nice straw man arguement.
It's a lovely straw man though. :)
Diversity of possibilities, personalization and representation of your character(s), and a subtle balance factor worked into the game system.
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The question is "what are stats?"
The most basic answer is a mechanism used to generate modifiers that are applied to skill resolution and other mechanism, such as DB and enc.
Do we need Stats? Not if there is another mechanism to generate those stat mods.
OTOH, perhaps tradition demands them.
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Stats are part of how many player relate to and visualize their characters. It's almost the same argument as "Why are there arch-types?"
If I have a huge burly tank and you have a small light fencer how are we going to differentiate them without stats?
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What generates stat mods, if not stats?
You could just use the mod, in effect, in all instances of play other than rolling stats, assigning stats, or stat gain, use the stat mod. . .with the exception of:
Stat drain
Death at -con hits
In which instance, it's there because otherwise people with negative con modifiers would die at positive hits, and even the superhumanly high con would die at -30 or less.
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What are stats?
A game mechanic that influences a fairly wide range of other mechanics.
Why do we need them?
Because gamers expect them.
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To me, the ten Stats, either of Primary Stats or Developement Stats, are one of the iconic aspects/components of Rolemaster. Without them, or if they got trimmed down to fewer stats, say, eight stats like for the Not-RM or HARP, it wouldn't appeal to me as a Rolemaster.
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I did not spend so much thought about why we RM uses stats and whether they are needed. I rather think that - if a new RM version gets created - that we should concentrate on reworking things where RM has weaknesses. I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!
Just my 2 cents
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I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!
Where's smug? He should be dropping by any minute to start complaining about Empathy again.
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Nothing wrong with either Empathy or Intuition ... but "nature spells", the Ranger and the Animist should all be essence professions :)
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Now to start of the Monk and Bard :evil1:
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Instead of "the 10 stats" I perhaps should have written "10 stats". That might have prevented the unnecessary debate (at least in this thread, where it's about why and if stats) about individual stat preferences. So please assume I had chosen this slightly different wording.
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Even if only mods were generated, players would begin to refer to them as stats. As in "I have a +8 St stat."
Co drain: now I know your imagination isnt this limited. Change the drain mechanic, or remove the drain mechanic, or generate soul points based on Co, say 10x mod?
In the end I also agree the current stat system (refrence to RMSS and RM2) works fine. It might be better to reduce the rate of stat gain rolls, but I like the high potentials generated, and so do players.
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Co drain isn't as bad as all that. The skills it impacts are really pretty limited. Off the top of my head, Athletic Brawn, Athletic Endurance, Body Development, and possibly Self Control and / or Outdoor Environmental.
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I totally agree that Co drain is a mechanics with very little real impact. It is mechanics that take loads of effort of execute, but very few players would worry about having most of the Co stat drained since it not until the very end that the penalty really mean anything significant.
As for stats...I think it is given that we need to have stats to make the races mean stuff.
I think in the core rules character ages should be divided into three areas.
*Child characters use stat gains that does not depend on their level, but rather age.
*Grown up characters can easily be approximated as having their potential stats, characters do reach their potentials very quickly so why clutter the core rules with a mechanic that only apply to the very first levels.
*Old characters suffer stat loss to the physical stats, but get extra DP to spend on lore/mental skills.
The only real benefit of keeping the stat gains is that some people might like rolling loads of dice when they level up.
Another possibility is having stat gains that are not random, but based on what skills the character buy.
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On soul drain: one of RM strong points is the equality of all. A dagger will kill anyone that is stabbed in the heart with it, regardless of level. Perhaps the strength of souls should be equal also, a set stat with a table that establishes penalties suffered when the soul is damaged/drained. Something in the optional section me thinks.
Spells, magic items, artifacs, magic items: all could bolster, heal or damage the soul. I see an entire new spell list, or even a SOUL MAGE...
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I cannot remember a single thread where someone complained about RM using the 10 stats. So, if it works don't fix it!
Where's smug? He should be dropping by any minute to start complaining about Empathy again.
The Empathy stat, ironically, kills puppies and drinks their blood.
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IMHO stats are another area that players can look to improve and are a hold over from the beginning of RPG's.
I have read and played with a couple of games that do stats differently and was not impressed about them. I also like the fact that you can improve a stat but that it does not necessarily improve or modify skills. IMHO this is an excellent way to do it and adds a lot of flavor without a lot of problems. But that is just me.
Also IMO it adds another way to get stuff done. Such as the gate that needs 40 St mod points (RMSS) to open might be opened instead with a number or other strengths ie stat value that is equal to the valur of the 40 ST mod. I do not have the numbers right now but I think you get my drift.
MDC
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I've been toying with adding Stat requirements to some item (weapons & armor) to be used effectively, and bonuses if the character's stats exceed the requirement.
Something along the lines of:
Shortbow has a minimum strength requirement of say 30 (representing the draw weight of the bow), which sets it's basic damage and range. Maximum of C critical. Within 10 feet it's +10 OB, +5 to 30 feet, +0 from 31 to 60 feet, and -1 OB per foot after that?
A composite recurve bow has a minimum requirement of say 75 (again representing a higher draw weight) which also set's it's basic damage & range. Maximum of E critical. Within 25 feet it's +10 OB, +5 to 50 feet, +0 from 51 to 75 feet, and -1 OB per foot after that?
Similar concept for armors, but when exceeding the strength requirement you can reduce the MM penalty by some amount.
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MidKnight;
There is an old article on The Guild Companion that has Stats Mods required for weapons. I use it and it has greatly changed my game. Now very few gnomes and halflings can use short swords as they get a penalty to their ST Mod. I do not remember the mod necessary to use the short sword but I think it is 0 or -2 not much. But it had a great impact and IMHO the impact was for the better.
MDC
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MidKnight;
There is an old article on The Guild Companion that has Stats Mods required for weapons. I use it and it has greatly changed my game. Now very few gnomes and halflings can use short swords as they get a penalty to their ST Mod. I do not remember the mod necessary to use the short sword but I think it is 0 or -2 not much. But it had a great impact and IMHO the impact was for the better.
MDC
I believe I recall reviewing that a while back and may have been the source for my inspiration. Thanks Mark, I'll have to circle back and see if I can find it and give it another / longer read.
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I generally assume weapons to be chosen to fit the person. . .so the halfling and the half ogre go shopping, and buy very different short swords. . .reflected in the difference in their stat bonuses, and it's impact on OB. . .though, it comes up to matter in actual play about as often as "does the chain mail fit me?" does.
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I generally equate weapon SIZE with the table. For instance a dagger is a tiny weapon and a short sword is a small weapon. I then equate character size to weapon size so a dagger is a halfing short sword but an ogre or troll can use a great sword as a broadsword. Of course that means there's no table for a giant sword but I equate x2 damage multipliers with Large and x 3 with huge.
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I generally assume weapons to be chosen to fit the person. . .so the halfling and the half ogre go shopping, and buy very different short swords. . .reflected in the difference in their stat bonuses, and it's impact on OB. . .though, it comes up to matter in actual play about as often as "does the chain mail fit me?" does.
I guess every game is different as it comes up in my game quite a bit. But then also the size of armor comes up a lot also. It is also why I created a re-size enchantment for armor so it can change its size somewhat. Not from 3' tall to 8' tall but more like + or - 6". But I guess higher level enchantments could change it to any size.
MDC
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I suspect that there are, at root, three reasons for stats.
First, they offer a baseline mechanism for certain things not covered by skills. . .unless you really want to go all out with skills like:
Encumbrance
Initiative
DB
And more in that vein.
Second, there are races, which gain a lot of their variation in stats.
Third, it's the primary layer of skill/task similarity. . .guns are like acrobatics are like bows are like dancing is like fencing is like the hurdles is like juggling. . .all reflected in agility.
I think this is a fine analysis of what skills are, and why we need them.
How much in your opinion should the stat layer contribute to weapon skill total for a level 20 world class fighter, say 5% or 25% or 40% of skill total?
The other contributions might be from skill rank bonus, similarity/category bonus, professional/level bonus, special ability bonus.
I noticed that in RMX the maximum stat is 90 when creating characters, making the maximum stat bonus for most characters around 15, which radically limits the contribution that stats could possibly make to skills, and I wonder if that was intentional or not.
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Some people, no matter how hard they train or try, can't be major league baseball players.
It's arguable if that's due to 50% variations in human ability, or that the competition is so fierce that less than 1% variation is enough to fail the cut.
But picking up varied weights has a lot more to do with stat than skill . ..strength is the most obviously trainable stat of course, but some people put on muscle and keep it a lot better than others.
Some people are measurably smarter than others. . .with some exceptions, smarter people tend to excel at learned tasks over less smart people with the same amount of training and experience.
RMC wise, a Halfling could be pulling a -20 ST, +25 Co and +25 AG, which is a decently large modification of result.
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And that same hafling with a bow would have a stat bonus to skill of Ag/Ag/St or....10? I know this was just an example, but that's one of my concerns with multiple stats, everyone is just so average, after all the averaging is done.
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Climbing, Directed Spells, Stalking, Swimming at +25, Body Development at +25.
Pure ST maneuvers to pick things up at -20, encumbrance at -20.
Some skills are strongly stat tied (X/X) or (X/X/X) while some are weaker (X/X/Y) (X/Y) or (X/Y/Y).
I suspect the reason for the mixing of stats was an anti powergaming measure to nerf MinMax builds. . .A bricky fighter needs ST and AG for weapons, Co and SD for Hits. A swashbuckling rogue needs ST and AG for Weapons, Qu for dodging. . .making it hard to max one stat vs all others and get a powegamed build out of it. . .if you push to extreme, you either need to really nerf the other 6-7 stats to max 3-4, or moderate your build.
One of the complaints sometimes made about pure casters is the fact that they are the one profession type most suited to going for broke and a max 100-101 realm stat, then to crom with the rest. (Especially Channelers, with an In being handy in play for perception tasks, and few directed spells needing Ag.)
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And that same hafling with a bow would have a stat bonus to skill of Ag/Ag/St or....10? I know this was just an example, but that's one of my concerns with multiple stats, everyone is just so average, after all the averaging is done.
Invent a halfling bow that is Ag/Ag/Ag, 1/2 hits, 10' point blank (+15), 11-50 medium (+0), 51-120 long (-20), 121-180 Extreme(-30). I mean, if we accept the absurdity of multiple races as standard fantasy fare, can't they at least be smart? Why would a weak race not invent weapons suited to them instead of relying on human weapons that are over sized for them?
This is by no means a put down to anyone here, just more of my diatribe against silly races in rpgs.
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Any self bow is going to be somewhat strength-based. Also, point-blank should be a penalty with self bow, rather than a bonus (an arrow leaves the bow flexing and until it straightens out, will not hit for proper penetration). Better make that a halfling crossbow.
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Any self bow is going to be somewhat strength-based. Also, point-blank should be a penalty with self bow, rather than a bonus (an arrow leaves the bow flexing and until it straightens out, will not hit for proper penetration). Better make that a halfling crossbow.
True on the arrow flight. I forgot that.
The point is it can still be a bow, with a few simple pullys attached like a modern compound bow. Crosbows work too. Maybe the ever inventful Gnomes and Halflings have a strong bond in the world.
Ok, the gnome/hobbit relationship comment was unecessary venom. My apologies for forcing anyone to imagine it.