Author Topic: Fluff  (Read 6817 times)

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2009, 02:44:49 AM »
 Reading the randomness thread Jolt said that the current state of most games is to produce books heavy on fluff and light on rules.

As has been demonstrated above, the general consensus is that gamebooks shouldn't have fluff campaign material (no surprise I am in the minority here) and I believe that the above statement isn't accurate. I feel that there are many games out there made without any, or a bare minimum, of campaign-style info in them. Savage Worlds, RM,SM, Hero, DnD, GURPS - it seems as all the "big" ones (with any and all White Wolf games being the big exception to this) are put out that way. Then they put out various campaign books that deal with a particualr genre/setting with rules adds and tweeks. The more esoteric games seem to be the only ones with inherent settings built into them.

Ok, a second time for me to tell my opinion and then to promptly get  :flame:!  (:P)

1) Campaign Material: Yes, at least a "basic primer" to allow an immediate jumping in. Later books for more detailed info.
2) YES!YES!YES! ('nuff said) Okay, because you asked nicely: YES!YES!YES!
3) Just so long as I don't have to learn calculus or astro-physics; I am fine with a simple mechanic that allows for a couple of preferences: A) Scaled success/failure, B) Easy modification ('cause I will).
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2009, 03:22:18 AM »
Savage Worlds, RM,SM, Hero, DnD, GURPS - it seems as all the "big" ones (with any and all White Wolf games being the big exception to this) are put out that way.

I think you can count also WHFRP and CoC among the "big ones", so we have other 2 games which come with their own setting. OTOH last edition of the World of Darkness moved toward the basic book with little fluff + many specific supplements formula...

My opinion on the three points:

1) IMHO should be very closely tied to crunch
2) I don't care very much about it, as long as the book is readable and well organized
3) Should depend on the setting and make possible to replicate in game what the fluff says
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2009, 03:56:59 AM »
 I can say that I also like rule books with great game mechanics and a little fluff. And I like my fluff books or world books with mechanics to make them run well.

 I think most of us are on the same page. But I tend to see quite a few books very heavy on fluff and then try and force some mechanics to make them workable in the system. Now I may see a lot more books than most people as a friend of mine buys a ton of stuff. Which gives me time to read it before the game as they are playing Wii or Rock Band and if I need to I can barrow it and delve further into it.
 
 I guess it also could be that I am getting older and have seen quite a bit of RPG stuff in my time.

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Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2009, 05:13:51 AM »
I have 4 good-sized book cases full of game books, with spill over. My "collection" is pretty massive. It is my third such collection, the first two having been sold to finance partying; one at the tail end of my stint in the Marine Corps, and the other about 6-7 years later (damn I'm getting old  :'(). This collection is not going that route.

What I am saying is that I, too, have seen many, many RPG books and have experienced the different trends over the years. Now is the era of the "tool-box" game, which is, to me, not a good thing due to my gaming philosophy: Art over Science. I want to get a feeling when I pick up my game book, and a book with just rules will be unable to give me that.

I can tell you that I have never read any RM book cover to cover* - only gone over those sections as I needed them. But I have read Paranoia cover to cover, and have read all of the Warmachine and Hordes books (as well as purchased them) even though I do not play either game. They entertained me. Maybe I am weird for wanting the entertainment value of the game to start before I sit down and play it...


*Everytime I have tried, I have given up about 20 minutes in, after having read and re-read the same sentence numerous times, finally realizing I was going no further. Just too dry.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 10:39:38 AM »
I personaly believe that it is in the entire gaming industries best interest to create self contained games.  Rules + Fluff.  If 3 guys (or girls) can chip in $10 each and by a game to entertain themselves for a weekend, you're more likely to attract new players.  Sell expansion material to further the experience. Because initial price & replayability (extended marginal utility) are the two key decision making factors to purchase hobby material you need to take both into consideration for first time buyers.
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 11:40:28 AM »
I can say something about self experience, what you call fluff sometimes is very usefull for RM user profile.

RM users usually like to tune some rules, modify or create new ones (house rules) to fit in their games. That Background Story info or descriptions of the world helps so much to that, for example the magical ritual, the entities origin descriptions in Construct Companion or notes about how different methods of divination work on Mentalism Companion are really an excellent help for that purpose (modify or create rules), as help to understand how they work.

Those desciptions have helped me in some occasions to modify some rules.

Maybe you talk about old books, it is true that RMCs had excesive material, and maybe some is not needed, but think there are about 7 or more RMCs (I don't know exactly), too many books, for that RM was refurbished into RMSS and RMFRP, more unified. IMO RMFRP books have really few fluff.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2009, 11:53:02 AM »
I guess I should have defined my question better.

1) Fluff: Background Story info or descriptions of the world, its people and how everything interacts.   
...
3) Rules: How things get done in the frame work of the rule box. By rule box I mean how the complete set of all rules work and what were they designed to work with or work for.

In many cases the background story & descriptions are inseparable from the rules set as the rules are based on a preconception of that.  For example RM, and virtually every other fantasy game, is based heavily on Tolkein as is obvious how core races are set up.  Core Earthdawn is much different in that orcs and trolls are visually similar but are different in the context of the rules of the game.  Cave Troll sky raider???  Blood elves are just wacko and are unique to ED.

The main different here is if the core rules are setting specific, like Earthdawn or Dark Heresy/Warhammer, so the 'fluff' from the above definition is necessary for the understanding of the basis of the rules.  RM and many other games while meant to be more generic or not as setting specific can afford to be lighter on the fluff as it isn't necessary to understand the context of the rules.  However it is within the context of a preconceived setting that the rules 'make sense'.  It just seems that Middle Earth - fancy schmancy tree hugging elves and evil nasty orcs - is the 'default setting' most games start with assumed by most players.

2) Art: To me art is presentation item. To me it is an important item as seeing something interesting that is not words can draw many peoples first and second looks.

Art and presentation make you pick up the book in the first place and holds your attention while skimming it.  The Dark Heresy books have a great presentation, artwork (although little of it is actually original) and feel of the game.  If I were to pick up a rule book with zero art and simply read like a textbook I would not likely buy it unless it were referred by someone else.  Art is an important marketing tool. 

That being said too much of it can be a bad thing.  If every other page is a full color pic of debatable talent the likewise I won't be likely to look at it further as they are obviously adding fill to expad on the page content (much like the second and third Matrix movies).

Art also serves as an example of what the authors were trying to describe in the rules.  Often is seems that when a new system comes out the publishers already have a setting in mind and most likely in production so the art/background fluff in the core books are essentially teasers for the 'new and exciting soon to be published Bob's World by Bob's gaming company'.

So in conclusion, fluff is a necessry component of all core rules set.  It really depends on the system, and how setting specific it is, as to where the lines between fluff as 'page filler', 'marketing component', 'example of the rules in action' and 'why the rules are that way' are drawn.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline kevinmccollum

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2009, 02:54:31 PM »
I like fluff in supplemental products, not the core rules. The core of a game should be the mechanics. The campaign and adventure materials in supplements (modules) should be "fluffy" to add background and color to the game. I really like the old ICE modules that went into detail about the physical surroundings and even NPC motivations/worldviews so  GM could, if he/she wished, add that in.

Offline markc

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2009, 06:27:39 PM »
I like fluff in supplemental products, not the core rules. The core of a game should be the mechanics. The campaign and adventure materials in supplements (modules) should be "fluffy" to add background and color to the game. I really like the old ICE modules that went into detail about the physical surroundings and even NPC motivations/worldviews so  GM could, if he/she wished, add that in.
+1
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Fluff
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2009, 07:07:24 PM »
The main different here is if the core rules are setting specific, like Earthdawn or Dark Heresy/Warhammer, so the 'fluff' from the above definition is necessary for the understanding of the basis of the rules.

Exactly what I want: rules and a setting. I like that better than just rules.

I like fluff in supplemental products, not the core rules. The core of a game should be the mechanics. The campaign and adventure materials in supplements (modules) should be "fluffy" to add background and color to the game. I really like the old ICE modules that went into detail about the physical surroundings and even NPC motivations/worldviews so  GM could, if he/she wished, add that in.

And for me, without the fluff in the core book I may not make it to the supplemental books.

Yes, I like and have played both RM/SM & Hero system - which are both toolbox games with no fluff in their rulebooks. But, I got into them through other people, so I have had a feeling/flavor imparted to me prior to getting the books myself. Up an until the point of me playing those games I never bought a single book from them and would always put them back on the shelf because they came across too much as a school text book to me. I would pick up and purchase games like Other Suns, Psi-World, Top Secret, etc. The first two having very similar rules, with just tweeks to support the specific setting and a SETTING.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.