Topic: Changing hit # from 0 to 100...

[Right Wing Wacko]

The easiest way to see what effects your change will have is to run a test combat. Take the 5th level fighter or ranger from the characters written up in ML and have him fight an orc or a hobgoblin. Run the combat first using the standard combat rules from ML and then run it a a second time using your house rules - see what difference it makes. I would think that will give you a reasonable idea of how that will affect your campaign.

Off the top of my head, I would say that it will certainly increase the length of time that it takes to run combats, as characters and monsters will be hitting a lot less often.

Hawk

Yeah... That's what I am going to end up doing...
After further thought though, maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill...

[Pat]

Further to this chain of thought, I find that stun has litle or no effect in my games. The PC's in the group are around 6th level and all have high stamina resistances (generally 100+) so that resistance rolls are generally low enough to avoid any stun penalties. Or, characters use the dreaded Jada leaf as a free action to remove 1d10 rounds of stun.

One of the characters (the tank in the party) has over 150 in Stamina resistance and will almost always not be affected by stun.

I find it gets to the point where the monsters have to have either a huge stamina resistance or not be affected by stun to have a fighting chance.

[RandalThor]

For instance...

A fighter with OB 120 swings at goblin with DB 20.
It is an automatic hit unless the goblin sacrifices OB for DB, barring a fumble of course.
Without any dice being rolled.

Which means that the goblin has to protect itself as anyone/thing in combat should be doing. I think that HARP is based upon the same ideology as RM as far as combat is concerned: You need to actively defend yourself from attacks, not to rely upon a passive defence (unless, of course, you are a Monk with many, many ranks in Adrenal Defence  - but then that is hardly passive, all that jumping around and stuff). This is a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

The idea that you build up an Armor Cl....oops, I mean Defence Bonus that is really high as a passive number just so you can always use your full OB is totally power gamish, imo. When in a fight, you are using some of your action to defend yourself, or you are getting hit...a lot. Bob and weave, bob and weave.... dodge, parry, spin, thrust..... bbrbbbrrbbbrr! Flip bill back down.....

If you just increase the number needed to succeed all you do is force the players to uber-maximise their OBs to the Nth degree, which will just cause more problems to deal with.

If there are times that the OB just totally overwhelms the DB, then so be it. Sometimes it just works out that way.

[Pat]

I think the point RWW was trying to make (and please correct me if I'm wrong RWW) is that PC's OB and DB quickly out distance the monsters especially when using Martial Law.

For example, a level Gargoyle has an OB 85 L Slash and DB of 80. A level 5 fighter (using ML) could have Black Alloy Masterwork full set chain (+70DB) with no maneauver penalties for 30 x 65sp = 19.5gp. Whack a full shield +30Db and +16 for quickness and base DB is now 116.
OB for the fighter (say 15 ranks) +60 ,+20 weapon skill, +15 stats and a white alloy masterwork broadsword for 30gp +25 = an OB of 120. This basic level 5 fighter has a DB 36 higher and OB 35 higher than the same level monster.

As RWW says, the fighter can parry 40 and still not miss unless he critically fumbles. His OB with parry is now 80 and DB 156. The gargoyle can not afford to use parry since his OB is currently -71 (ie he will only hit on a 71 or higher roll.) 

I don't have a problem with RWW's idea to increase DB but maybe it should only aply to monsters to bring them into line with Martial Law bonuses. (Please disregard if you don't use ML).

[Right Wing Wacko]

I think the point RWW was trying to make (and please correct me if I'm wrong RWW) is that PC's OB and DB quickly out distance the monsters especially when using Martial Law.

For example, a level Gargoyle has an OB 85 L Slash and DB of 80. A level 5 fighter (using ML) could have Black Alloy Masterwork full set chain (+70DB) with no maneauver penalties for 30 x 65sp = 19.5gp. Whack a full shield +30Db and +16 for quickness and base DB is now 116.
OB for the fighter (say 15 ranks) +60 ,+20 weapon skill, +15 stats and a white alloy masterwork broadsword for 30gp +25 = an OB of 120. This basic level 5 fighter has a DB 36 higher and OB 35 higher than the same level monster.

As RWW says, the fighter can parry 40 and still not miss unless he critically fumbles. His OB with parry is now 80 and DB 156. The gargoyle can not afford to use parry since his OB is currently -71 (ie he will only hit on a 71 or higher roll.) 

I don't have a problem with RWW's idea to increase DB but maybe it should only aply to monsters to bring them into line with Martial Law bonuses. (Please disregard if you don't use ML).

Thank you for the clear explanation...
That is exactly my point.
So you suggest increasing the DB for monsters only?
What do you think is a fair amount of increase?

Restricting PC access to magical and/or superior quality items is one way of dealing with some of the problem. I am notoriously stingy with items anyway.

[RandalThor]

The monsters are not static. They can gain professional levels too, or just gain more powers to supplement what they have already. As to how much to give them, only you can answer that: they are your group and you know them the best. Try some modifications out, if they don't work well (in either direction: too tough or too weak) try more, and more until you get to where you want it. The professional levels work best with intelligent/societal creatures, while adding powers and the like is best for monsters.

But no matter what, if the PCs decide to only go after the weakest of adversaries, then they will usually trounce them - though the rewards should be very, very, very much lacking.

[Pat]

So you suggest increasing the DB for monsters only?
What do you think is a fair amount of increase?

OK.....How about this.

Monster Adjustment Martial Law System (MAMLS)

The problem, as said above, is that the use of Masterwork items, alloyed weapons and battle runes make a PC substantially tougher at earlier levels than HARP core originally intended. While PC's have access to these new ML skills and equipment, monsters don't. For example, a HARP core fighter verses a ML fighter:

Core                              ML
Chain Full set +40DB       MW Black alloy chain +70DB
Full shield +30DB            MW Black alloy full +60db
Warhammer                    MW White alloy Warhammer +25
Min Man. penalty -10        Min Man. penalty 0
Cost 8.9gp                      Cost 91.5gp
DB (base) +70                 DB (base) +130
OB -10 Man penalty          OB +25
Man. penalty -10              Man. penalty 0
Quickness bonus -10         Quickness bonus not affected.

Not bad for less than 100gp and probably achievable (price wise) for most PC's by level 3. And this doesn't include Battle Runes introduced in ML so PC's have cheap access to powerful stuff that monsters cannot get.

(BTW I'm defining monsters as creatures who can not use armour or (probably) weren't intended to have any. So Giant Spiders, wolves and dragons are monsters. Humanoids, Dwarfoids, Gnomoids, Gryxoids etc are not. Skeletons aren't monsters as they can wear armour and use shields, Trolls would be monsters as (IMO) they were designed to not wear armour (that's why they have Tough Hide).

Right...Base rules.
1) All monsters are Rigid Leather (minimum) for Armour Adjustment. Hide, fur whatever is considered Rigid Leather Armour Adjustment. (GM's can change this though if they attack PC's with butterflies or bunny rabbits, they can be unarmoured.)
2) PC's armour adjustment will always be based on their armour. Gryphons are unarmoured and Nagazi have soft leather armour adjustment due to their races.
3) (Because I know someone will say it otherwise) Barding for horses, elephants etc will add to DB but will only increase damage adjustment if it's metal. Leather barding will remain Rigid Leather.
4) Tough hide increases Armour Adjustments in increments so:
Tough Hide minor = Chain damage adjustment
Tough Hide major = Plate/chain damage adjustment
Tough Hide greater = Plate damage adjustment.

Now HARP and M:AFG monsters will receive a bonus dependant on their level. The increase is to both OB and DB so a level 1 monster receives +5 OB and +5 DB. The table can run like this:

Level 1 (+5) Level 2 (+5)  Level 3 (+5) Level 4 (+5) Level 5 (+5)
Level 6 (+4) and so on........................................Level 10 (+4)
Level 11 (+3) and so on......................................Level 15 (+3)
Level 16 (+2) and so on......................................Level 20 (+2)
Level 21 (+1) and so on......................................Level 25 (+1)

The bonuses will be added together so that a level 3 monster will have +15 OB and DB (+5,+5,+5). A level 10 monster +45 OB and DB (5x5 + 5x4). A level 20 monster +70 OB and Db up to a maximum of level 25 +75 OB and DB.

Hopefully, this should counter the effects of ML and provide a balance between monster level and the challenge to PC's. What do you think?

[Right Wing Wacko]

I think it looks good!
I am going to incorporate your MAMLS into my games and see how it goes...

And, of course, the intelligent "monsters" (orcs, goblins, and such) will have access to the same equipment as the PC's.


Thanks Pat!

[Right Wing Wacko]

Yes... I'm still pondering over this issue...

[Right Wing Wacko]

How about if I just use the RMFRP armor, attack and critical tables... basically HARP with RMFRP combat rules.

Anyone see any obvious problems I am not ?

Thanks
rww

[jolt]

Would you have them buy combat skills normally as per the HARP rules or would you modify it?

I have HARP but I'm no expert at it; how do the OB's and DB's compare to FRP?  If the differences are large it may have odd effects on the combat results.

jolt

[Right Wing Wacko]

Well, everything looks about the same...or not too different...

[Right Wing Wacko]

 

Has anyone else used an Arms Law product with HARP in place of a Harp specific combat system?

Does it work fine?
Any modifications you found necessary?

Thanks!
rww

[jurasketu]

RWW-

Have you perchance looked at my SPAR rules?

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/mar/sparforharp.html

SPAR rules don't change the hit number - but it can make it harder to score a injury because of the way the Weapon Skill OB is allocated during the rounds. Battles last more rounds but tend to produce more maneuvering, tactical use of spells, combat trickery, etc yet the rounds are faster because it does away with choosing attack/parry allocations in advance.

Robin

[Right Wing Wacko]

RWW-

Have you perchance looked at my SPAR rules?
Robin

No... I haven't...

But now I shall!
Give me a couple to four days to peruse it...

And... Thanks!
rww

[RandalThor]

I just printed out the SPAR rules and will be giving them the once over (and maybe the twice or thrice) as well.