Topic: RMX ambush

[markc]

 I have been helping a friend with the RMX rules and they asked me this question. "Why is it so important for the ambush skill user to act before the target if they have approched undetected?"

 To which I asked for the text in the book. And after reading the Ambush text, said "I do not know but I will ask".

 So does anyone have a good answer?

Thanks
MDC

[Marc R]

it's "Strike before they can react"

My read on it is just stressing that the attack must be a surprise.

For instance, if you used 100% move right up onto someone, with no move left to make an attack, and then they notice you, it doesn't matter if you win init the next round, they've seen you, so they are aware of you and you cannot ambush them. They react to your presence by taking you into account in their defensive stance. . .

If you loose initiative to the target in a melee, and they still don't know you are there, and act to attack some other guy, you can still ambush them (only at 1/2 ranks because they're doing the melee shuck and jive.). . them acting isn't a problem, it's them "reacting" that blows ambush.

[markc]

Lord Miller,
 Thanks that was my interpratation from my RMSS rule mindset but I wanted to make sure what I was telling him and to provide an example. Your example is perfict.

MDC

[Lemche]

Now that we are talking about ambush....
I had a session with some players yesterday and one of the wanted to make an ambush in the middle of a combat.

I wasn't sure about the rules but after some investigation I could see that he could get an ambush with ? of his normal ambush if he could make a successful stalk.

But he had a side question that I could not answer.

"Can you make a surprise attack in the middle of a combat if you sneak up behind the victim or does it only apply to the first round of the attack before the victim knows about the attack"

Can anyone tell me - I can't find anything on this matter in the rules.

/Lemche

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

"Can you make a surprise attack in the middle of a combat if you sneak up behind the victim or does it only apply to the first round of the attack before the victim knows about the attack" Huh

Yes, you can make a surprise attack in melee, however, it should be extremely difficult to do so.

1) If the foe has already seen the person trying to sneak up on him, and then that person disappears, he may or may not be wondering where that other person went.

2) Two individuals in combat are NOT standing still whacking one another. They are constantly shifting position and moving back and forth, and perhaps even swapping positions with one another.

3) If a person is trying to use stalk/hide and approach somebody undetected during melee, I would make it at least an Extremely Hard maneuver.

4) If the target has friends and/or allies who can see the person sneaking up on the target, a shouted warning is all that is required to remove both the chance of gaining surprise and/or using ambush ranks.

[Marc R]

As a house rule, I also allow ambush if the target is aware of the attacker, but not aware of the attack, or the fact that they are in danger of attack.

Killer is talking to Joe about the baseball game last weekend, Killer asks Joe to pass him the salt from the kitchen counter. Joe turns to grab the salt, and Killer takes a knife out of his pocket and stabs Joe in the neck.

Unless Joe had reason to suspect an attack from Killer, there doesn't seem to be any reason why he can't be caught flatfooted and attacked unexpectedly without opportunity to defend logic wise, so I bend the rules to fit and allow ambush.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That would definitely fall under a surprise attack.  And in that sort of situation, I would even allow full use of the ambush bonus.


To further answer the earlier questions..

The 1/2 ambush ranks comes from the target being in combat (with somebody else!!) and taking defensive action against that other foe.  His defensive actions make it more difficult to place your attack (and thus you only get 1/2 your normal bonus).

Surprise isn't required to make an ambush (but it sure helps!!!). What is required is that the ambush attack be made before the target can react to the ambush attack.

Going into the "meta" here, this means that the target's declarations cannot take the ambusher into account. If the target sees you coming, and declares that he is doing a parry or even just keeping an eye on the ambusher (even if the ambusher gets first initiative), then he has reacted, and the ambusher does not get to use the ambush bonus.

[Marc R]

I never liked the wording of ambush, that say that the defender must be unaware of the attacker, not the attack.

There have been two iffy points regarding my use of that rule

The first iffy territory is if you get into a melee with 6 assassins, who spread out and circle you. i.e. nightmare scenario on a battlemap, an enemy on every hex facing.

Now, at any given combat round, one of them is on your "back" facing, and technically speaking you are unaware of that attack, but aware of that attacker. (Like, a technical reading of Adrenal Defense, you cannot see that attacker so you cannot use AD to defend against them) Hence those monk spells like "All around sight"

I'm iffy on if I would allow the rear assassin to use the 1/2 melee ambush on the foe. If they know they are surrounded, and are turning and blocking, so it seems a little iffy. . .

The other iffy spot has been jokingly referred to in my group as "Candygram for Mongo". . someone walks right up to you, in a manner that you're not suspicious, with a weapon out, and just attacks you unexpectedly.

That one tends to resolve based on the situation and the character's state at the time. . .if they are on their way to the buffet table at a wedding and relaxed and another guest walks up with a steak knife in hand and sticks it in them, then I would probably allow ambush even from in front. But if they are on line in the prison cafeteria, paranoid, expecting danger, I likely wouldn't unless the attack was from behind, since they would likely be keeping a close eye on the person walking near them with a utensil in hand.

[RandalThor]

As for the surrounded combatant I would give them a Sit. Aware: Combat (modified by facing/numbers/etc.) to either negate or modify the assassins ambush chances. Exactly how much or how little depends upon the fighting skills of the surrounded individual and the assassins. Maybe the RR table could be used. Hhmmmmm......... Must look into.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Surrounded target -- RMC Arms Law, page 28 - Combat Perception -- A character can normally see 5 out of 6 facings. A simple "Quick Perception" roll each round negates the possibility of any foe sneaking up behind the character to attack and get Ambush.

Technical Reading -- A technical reading should never read more into what something says than it actually says. The comment that gives a "technical reading" regarding Adrenal Defense makes some assumptions that I disagree with in regards to the section of the post where it was included. If the character is aware that he has a foe behind him (such as with the six surrounding foes), then he will expect an attack and thus Adrenal Defense is appropriate and would be fully usable (especially if quick perception is also used to keep an eye on the guy.

Wedding buffet -- That is a situational circumstance, not an "iffy" thing. The character with the knife would need to use other skills to approach the character (i.e. acting nonchalant, using duping, etc..), and success would have to be determined by use of some skill that disguises the attackers intent versus the defender's perception.


RandalThor -- This discussion is revolving around RMC and/or RMX. There is no Situational Awareness skills in RMC or RMX. There is only Perception. 

[RandalThor]

Oh yeah. Well then, a successful perception check. 

[markc]

 I am glad to see others with questions.

 Also what was said above really helped out a lot. In fact IMO it sould be writen up as a FRQ about ambush and posted in a section that new GM's and players can find easily.
MDC

[Marc R]

um, I said I was iffy on allowing Ambush to the 6th foe who has rear facing on you, generally speaking, I wouldn't allow it, for some of the reasons you gave, but mostly because my house rule changes "Must approach undetected" to "The attack must be unexpected.". . .either way, in the book rule you can't do it since the attacker is "Detected" even if they are behind and out of sight, the defender knows they are there. . .per my house rule, the attack is not unexpected either. . .the variation isn't all that signifigant, until you show up at the wedding. . . .

I do allow the "candygram for Mongo" attack ala the wedding buffet stabbing, but I hardly think you could call that attacker having approached "undetected", even if you use duping to appear as a non dangerous waiter, you're approaching "Mis-perceived" not "undetected". If your GM was one of those hard-arsed book GMs, they'd likely say no to the "Could you pass the sugar. . .and die!!" attacks, since you're not "Undetected". . . .as I said above, I was never too happy with that wording in ambush, which is perhaps due to the name of the skill being "Ambush" when in use it seems to actually be "Sneak attack". . .in which case my substitution of "The attack must be unexpected" at my table seems to work out fine. . .

Shrug. Some GMs and Players dislike making Ambush any more broad in use, since it's pretty nasty. 17 ranks of ambush (8th level)hits the sweet spot where you kill/maim on any crit roll of 49 or better when you can fully use it. (How many GMs start artfully creating work arounds to avoid the ambush built PCs from popping all their major foes every session?). . .I know people who think allowing "Candygram for Mongo" is insane and unbalancing. . .I think it makes sense. I think it balances on "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and it gets used on PCs. . . .It's bad enough getting killed by assassins, but there's a long term social penalty to being that person who always stands in corners, and tenses up to fight mode every time someone walks inside a 10' radius. (in my games, loads of things get balanced on "social" penalties, like having the NPCs not trust you, since you so obviously don't trust them.)

[twh]

(in my games, loads of things get balanced on "social" penalties, like having the NPCs not trust you, since you so obviously don't trust them.)

I think that single concept fixes a lot of game balance issues.

[smug]

I never liked the wording of ambush, that say that the defender must be unaware of the attacker, not the attack.

I never really liked the naming of ambush, to be honest.

[Marc R]

as I said above, I was never too happy with that wording in ambush, which is perhaps due to the name of the skill being "Ambush" when in use it seems to actually be "Sneak attack". . .in which case my substitution of "The attack must be unexpected" at my table seems to work out fine. . .

I never liked the wording of ambush, that say that the defender must be unaware of the attacker, not the attack.

I never really liked the naming of ambush, to be honest.

Great minds, and all that. . ."Ambush" implies a different meaning than the skill actually entails, though I do like it better than "Backstab" which was also a term that implies an action done from the rear. . . .though "Sneak attack" might be just too generica, it actually covers what I'd like for the skill to mean without any other presumptions or baggage. shrug.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Official Ambush Clarification

In the skill description, where it says "To use his Ambush skill a character must approach his foe undetected and be able to strike before the foe can react.", the word "undetected" means that the character has to approach the foe undetected as a threat to the foe.

This allows for several different methods of approaching the foe to be possible, depending upon the circumstances involved.

However, it needs to be pointed out that due to the manner in which the tactical/initiative system works, it is possible that a character approaching a foe from the front may lose their opportunity to use Ambush through the initiative roll and/or through the declared actions of the target of the Ambush.

For example, taking the situation in which the character uses acting or duping to approach from the front. The moment in which the character declares his attack, the target of the ambush also gets to declare an action. Depending upon the action declared (such as parrying using MA or using a Dodge maneuver), the target can be said to be "reacting" to the attack and thus negates the Ambush mod to the crit.

However, it is also important to point out that the target COULD be considered to be surprised, and if the mod to initiative put the surprised target's initiative below zero, then he obviously is too surprised to react in that round and thus the Ambush can work.


Official Surprise Clarification

Surprise of a target isn't really covered very thoroughly in the RMC books, at least not in regards to this type of situation. It should be noted that if the modifier for being surprised (-25) reduces a character's initiative to below zero, then the character will be unable to act during the round in which he is surprised.

As stated on page 33 of Arms Law, it still rests with the GM to determine how badly somebody is surprised and/or for how long.

[markc]

 That makes a lot more sense and will help a lot.

 On the RMSS side[please be kind] sometimes I lump the skill of fauna, anatomy or creature lore in with using ambush. With the stipulation that they have to be at least 1/2 the level of ambush or have 10 ranks in the approperate skill. And sometimes I even make them roll to see if they remember where to hit it or limit the ambush roll on the chart etc.
 But in RMC it is much easyer to just use the skill by its self.

MDC

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That is a good idea -- using Lore skills to be able to make use of other skills, especially when dealing with creatures or races that do not have the same physiology.

[Marc R]

That's much better. . .funny, for a conversation that kind of started small, this one went in good directions and got a lot done fast.

kudos all around.