Author Topic: Sigil activation? Targets effected?  (Read 1575 times)

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Offline Malleable

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Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« on: March 02, 2020, 06:29:30 PM »
So I just started a Runemaster for a new campaign.  I liked the Words of Power list, but reading another post I read something about how Sigils are very powerful - which I completely did not follow.
I was thinking that Sigils were like Symbols where they were scribed on a surface and triggered when people entered the area - but I guess this is not the case?
And how are they activated?
And they are described as effecting all targets in the area of effect.  But they don't effect the caster?  What about other party members?  I was always under the impression that area of effect spells effected party members unless you could specify targets and that is not the way Sigils are described in RoCo II.  The Mentalist spell Mind Shout effects everyone in the radius, so I've never cast it when party members are in range...
Any guidance on how sigils are activated, and how targets are effected would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mal


Offline brole

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2020, 07:04:37 PM »
So I just started a Runemaster for a new campaign.  I liked the Words of Power list, but reading another post I read something about how Sigils are very powerful - which I completely did not follow.
I was thinking that Sigils were like Symbols where they were scribed on a surface and triggered when people entered the area - but I guess this is not the case?
And how are they activated?
Hi,
Your probably referring to http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19628.0.

Sigils as discussed there are simply multi-charge runes, so they are not triggered as such but used as a rune would be.

- Brett

e crits all round

Offline Malleable

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2020, 07:28:38 AM »
Brett,
Thanks for the reply.  Could you clarify how targeting is done with these area effects?
1. Do they effect anyone in the area of effect, including party members?
2.  They do not effect the caster?
They seem powerful given the area they can cover at high levels, but if they effect party members you have to be on your own (which is a bit scary for a caster).
Thanks,
Mal

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2020, 07:56:49 AM »
1. Do they effect anyone in the area of effect, including party members?
2.  They do not effect the caster?
They seem powerful given the area they can cover at high levels, but if they effect party members you have to be on your own (which is a bit scary for a caster).
By default, it's the former and the latter, hence my example about the army using them putting each user at a safe distance of the others and since IIRC such spells don't affect the caster (just as much as a Shout spell that affects "everyone in the area of effect" doesn't affect the caster either). Now, as "being scary", it depends. Remember that it's not a "physical effect" the way a fireball is, for instance, nor does the caster need to choose its targets. As such the area of effect isn't affected by obstacles:o That means that, in a dungeon, a Sigil of Pain user may just go a bit ahead of his comrades, affect (KILL!!!) all creatures in a 3D sphere (meaning including lower and upper levels) across walls, grounds and ceilings, casting several Sigils just to be sure, then be joined by his comrades. Heck, the Evil Overlord In His Castle™ doesn't need much to protect himself: just some "detect intruders" spell at the entrance, lots of walls and lots of Sigil of Pain. Once such intruders are detected, he only has to cast a Sigil each round, affecting them across his whole castle, whilst they'd need minutes or ever hours to reach him. Success guaranteed!

That being said, a DM may already have rules to allow a caster to exclude people from his spells, especially for such  non-physical area of effect spells (otherwise all aforementioned "Shout" would become way less useful...)
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2020, 08:49:30 AM »
How does range affect the BAR for spells that start at 0' and reach out to 100'?

Range can give -20. Full cover gives -20. Essence vs. metal armor cause spell failure at 16 or lower. If you get the full -40 you fail on a 46 or lower.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2020, 09:10:27 AM »
Honestly, this is a more general question, as it concerns all multiple targets spells, such as "xxx True" spells that affect twenty targets, each with possibly a different armour and at a different range from the caster, and it probably depends on the GM. I indeed doubt that any GM rolls a BAR and RR for each and all targets… It's even funnier with spell failure results, where we enter quantum logics, as a spell may both fail and succeed at the same time, since its result depends on the target's armour!  :P
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2020, 10:27:04 AM »
Unless there's a hard rule I'd probably only include any universal modifiers when calculating whether the spell fails, and apply them per target when figuring out the RR modifier. For example, when using the sigil with a 100' radius:

  • Roll it, get a 35.
  • Base range is 0' so no modifier to the first roll.
  • Every possible target in the area has full cover so -20 to the first roll.
  • Some targets are in leather and some are in metal. Leather is the best option so it's used to determine spell failure.

Final results:
The absolute best modifier for the caster is -20 against leather. 15 on the chart is not a failure so no problem there. Various targets have different RR mods based on their specific modifiers and armor type. It adds more calculations but it's the only thing that's fair to both the caster and the targets.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2020, 10:57:00 AM »
This is of course a problem that RMU has now fixed. Mods due to armor, cover, and range are just RR mods that do not affect the initial Spell Casting Roll, so they don't cause fumbles.

So that's probably the best way of doing it.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2020, 11:07:52 AM »
This is of course a problem that RMU has now fixed. Mods due to armor, cover, and range are just RR mods that do not affect the initial Spell Casting Roll, so they don't cause fumbles.

So that's probably the best way of doing it.

I may actually use that should RMU ever become a real product and be noticeably better than the 20+ books I already own for RM2.
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Offline Malleable

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2020, 02:58:06 PM »
1. Do they effect anyone in the area of effect, including party members?
2.  They do not effect the caster?
They seem powerful given the area they can cover at high levels, but if they effect party members you have to be on your own (which is a bit scary for a caster).
By default, it's the former and the latter, hence my example about the army using them putting each user at a safe distance of the others and since IIRC such spells don't affect the caster (just as much as a Shout spell that affects "everyone in the area of effect" doesn't affect the caster either). Now, as "being scary", it depends. Remember that it's not a "physical effect" the way a fireball is, for instance, nor does the caster need to choose its targets. As such the area of effect isn't affected by obstacles:o That means that, in a dungeon, a Sigil of Pain user may just go a bit ahead of his comrades, affect (KILL!!!) all creatures in a 3D sphere (meaning including lower and upper levels) across walls, grounds and ceilings, casting several Sigils just to be sure, then be joined by his comrades. Heck, the Evil Overlord In His Castle™ doesn't need much to protect himself: just some "detect intruders" spell at the entrance, lots of walls and lots of Sigil of Pain. Once such intruders are detected, he only has to cast a Sigil each round, affecting them across his whole castle, whilst they'd need minutes or ever hours to reach him. Success guaranteed!

That being said, a DM may already have rules to allow a caster to exclude people from his spells, especially for such  non-physical area of effect spells (otherwise all aforementioned "Shout" would become way less useful...)

Olf,
Thanks again.  So if you are mobile use Spell Mastery to put the spells at a range (or walk ahead of your party :( ).  And for the evil overlord you want to put the Sigils into Symbols, Spell Triggers or Wards.  BUT these can be seen ahead of time and shut down (my groups gotten good at that). 
Thanks guys.  More comments appreciated.
Mal 

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2020, 09:26:12 PM »
And for the evil overlord you want to put the Sigils into Symbols, Spell Triggers or Wards.
I don't think you can, since Sigils are explicitely not "spells" in themselves but rather equivalent to rune spells "that automatically 'enrunes' a specific spell". As such, putting the Sigil into a Ward (for instance) would cast the Sigil when the Ward activates rather than activate the Sigil ("read the rune"), resulting in the Sigil's spell equivalent to be 'enruned' rather than to be cast. In other words, casting a Sigil spell doesn't produce its effect but 'enrunes' its effect as a rune onto a rune paper. One then have to explicitly reads the rune…

 
Quote
BUT these can be seen ahead of time and shut down (my groups gotten good at that). 
See? Through walls? A Runemaster's Ward covers an area of 10'R/lvl (just the same as the Sigil of Pain's effect, so it's really absolutely perfect!) Considering that most spells (including detection and especially dispel spells) have a range of 100' or area of effect of 100'R (except if you're playing at very high level…), it means that at level 11 (which is not really high…), a Runemaster may cast a Ward that may activates before it is detected; if put "inside" the Tower of Evil™ —meaning there are walls between it and the "outside"— it cannot be seen either. Since it is "triggered by an event of the caster's choosing (e.g., time period, certain movement, certain sounds, touch, etc.)", the caster may just have it triggered when "intruders" (for instance any creature not performing a certain sign, or speaking a certain password, etc.) enter its area of effect and, say, merely ring a bell (why? because an Alarm Ward is a mere level 2 spell!) When it happens, all the Runemaster has to do and take out his book whose pages are all an 'enruned' Sigil of Pain… and read one each round. Why a book? Because a book may be small and yet have, you know, hundreds of pages! Sure, any, say three hundred-pages book where each page is a Rune is dangerous but a Runemaster may have charged runes or sigil!!!  :o Remember that by level 12 only, he may give each Sigil of Pain up to 30 charges! …so his book is the equivalent of three hundreds Rods without the encumbrance nor the spell limitation (a Rod may only have up to level 5 spells, and none even approaches the power of a Sigil of Pain!!)

Yes, producing such a book may take him some time but… The reason why the first country that gains the magic knowledge to have Runemaster would dominate the world: because it may mass-produced such books. Even if there are few actual Runemasters, all they need to do is to spend their days producing the pages of the book, with countless people channelling them the needed PPs to cast as many spells as possible (when creating a Rune Paper and enrunning it takes a long time, nothing prevents a Runemaster to create several Rune Papers at the same time since casting a spell takes about three rounds / 30 seconds). Our world superpowers are defined by their nuclear arsenal; in a fantasy world where the Runemaster exists, that a country has the knowledge to form them and how many it has of them defines its position as a superpowers.  ;) …including the potential Cold War state since the potential of destruction of actually using all these BMDs (Books of Massive Destructions) is… huge, especially when employed in inhabited areas, as such spells would kill people across the walls, grounds and ceilings of their houses!! :P

Imagine terrorists with such enruned Sigils of Pain~ It's just pages, so it's so easy to hide~
So, yeah, as I think I wrote, if you consider all the ramifications, merely having Runemasters in your world would change its face~

P.S. Yet, with all I said about the Sigil of Pain (remember that it's especially it that makes Runemasters so broken: sure, having a rune book with hundreds of thirty-charged fireballs is dangerous but a Fireball being a level 8 spell, one needs to be at least level 16 to cast the Rune spell, at least level 20 to embed it as a chargeable spell —reminder: a Sigil of Pain is the equivalent of a level 3 or 4 spell— and a fireball only has a radius of 10'R, being blocked by obstacles such as walls), I consider it merely the second most broken spell of RM2/RMC (since an even more broken spell was introduced in the CC!!!  :o)
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Majyk

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2020, 10:48:32 PM »
No GM would allow a sigil to affect anything but those in sight line distance to it.

Besides *possibly* Detection spells, anything having to measure distance through walls and floors is Not RAI(Rule as Intended).
If it was, it is definitely broken and needs house ruling by your GM first, whatever the community confirms.  :o

Offline jdale

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2020, 10:49:33 PM »
Quote
when creating a Rune Paper and enrunning it takes a long time, nothing prevents a Runemaster to create several Rune Papers at the same time since casting a spell takes about three rounds / 30 seconds

I don't have RM2 Spell Law to check, but if you're going for multiple charges you're using Sigil/Runes Imbedding which says it uses the alchemical rules (SL 9.92). I'm pretty sure even in RM2 that takes longer than the normal casting time of a spell. In RMSS, it's a week per level of the spell used to create the item, halved for charged items. I assume that does not mean 30 seconds a day for a month and a half. RMU is explicit that this means 4 hours work days (which is pretty generous in my opinion).
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2020, 04:28:17 AM »
RM2 SL merely states that:
Quote
  • The appropriate Imbed # spell for the appropriate realm must be cast on the item once a day (that's why the Duration of many Alchemist Base spells is 24 hours),
  • While creating the item, the spell to be imbedded must also be cast on the item once a day (this spell can may be cast by the Alchemist, an item, or another spell user),
  • If the Item is to be a Wand, a Rod, or a Staff, then the appropriate Charge xxx spell must be cast on the item once a day.
I see no mention of having to work hours per day on the item. Even the later chapters "Time Cost" and "Required Spell Casting Costs" merely mention for how long the spells are to be cast and that "the spell casting cost is merely the spells and power points that are required to be cast to make a magic item".
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Sigil activation? Targets effected?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2020, 04:35:56 AM »
Besides *possibly* Detection spells, anything having to measure distance through walls and floors is Not RAI(Rule as Intended).
How do you detect presences through walls if you need a line sight? What's the purpose of a communication spell if you need your target to be "in sight line distance" to you? If such spells don't need such a line sight, why would others? What's the consistant reasoning behind such a fact? Read my logic in http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19628.0, when I answered jdale about the matter.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.