Topic: Parry or Dodge

[BigSteph75]

I was wondering something about the parry rule (Take from his OB to put in his DB) Does a character who has nothing to parry with (No sword or shield) like an archer or a mage, can he still do the thing for the purpose of dodge. .. I take my OB with bows to put it in my DB for exemple ?

Hope I am clear, English not my first language.

Steph

[Puin]

Hi Steph,

Dodge? That's what Quickness Bonus stands for!!

Besides, if you hold something like a bow or staff or similar you can increase Defensive Bonus (DB) by +5DB,+10DB or +15DB (GM's discretion upon the item used) but always under the +20DB that shields grant.

You can't trade your bow OB to melee DB. We have never done so.

If you hold a staff and have Quarterstaff/ Spear/ Halberd/... OB, you could trade those (up to GM's discretion, you know, a mage staff is similar to but not a Quartersatff/ Spear/ ...)

I will also make a Breakage roll for the shielding items each time they parry. Maybe the ancestral family staff that grants heirloom won't be able to survive the hit of the foe's battle axe!!! 

[Hurin]

The rules specify that a character needs a melee weapon to parry a melee attack (e.g. if you are using the edition of RM2 with the red band, p. 12, section 4.3, 'Parryng).

Personally, if a mage or archer wanted to use his bow as an improvised club, I would allow him to parry with it, but he would have to use his club OB, not his bow OB, because his bow OB is ranged, and you can't parry with a ranged weapon.

[Peter R]

RMC is a little more flexible with Parry and says:
They must also have a shield,
suitable terrain, or a Melee weapon to
get full benefit of parry. Some weapons
may only be used to parry with a certain
percentage of the wielder’s OB

Parrying without a weapon is Dodging.

[Hurin]

Does RMC specify how dodging works?

[Peter R]

It is simply the label for parrying without a weapon. No additional rules.

[Hurin]

Ok, so say i want to dodge with my weapon OB, but i have dropped my weapon. Do I get any DB bonus?

[Puin]

Ok, so say i want to dodge with my weapon OB, but i have dropped my weapon. Do I get any DB bonus?

YES!! You always dodge!!! (apply Qu total bonus as DB)

[That is unless you are somehow pinned to the ground (by a spell, mud or tar puddle, whatever!!) There are exceptions for everything in a fantasy game ]

Well, we have always understood that (with no armor nor others bonus/malus/special skills or items):

1) You always dodge!!! (apply Qu total bonus as DB)

2) You hold a weapon? You may parry with it! (trade as many OB to DB as you want) [and if you trade the 100% of your OB to DB (aka Full Parry) you add and extra +5DB for "weapon shielding" (02-04 Shield-Parry Table)]

3) You don't have weapon but hold something solid enough (a stool, a cape wrapped around your forearm, a log, a bow,...) or have something you can put in between (a table, small tree, low wall, streetlight,...) then, at GM's discretion, you can add some DB.

And you must add all three together to have your total DB = 1)+2)+3).

As an anecdote, there are medieval drawings of duels that had a low wall/fence in between duelist. They even didn't don leg armor, it was unnecessary!! 

[Peter R]

@hurin, I believe the RAW answer would be you can still parry with your weapon OB because of the 10 second round and flurry of blows. There is no clean distinction between when the weapon was dropped and which of your opponents many attacks may or may not hit you. Remember in RM2 the attack roll is just rolling for the one of many attacks in the round, the one with the best chance of landing.

[Hurin]

Thanks Peter, but I was more asking about how much of your OB you would get to add if you don't have a weapon at all. So let's say I never had one to begin with. Puin notes that he would houserule that, "at GM's discretion, you can add some DB." But I don't know how much, and that is the key issue. 100%? 50%? And aside from the houserule, what is the specific rule (RAW)?

I confess I really don't like the idea that someone might get full parry (call it dodge if you want) for using a weapon in a way it wasn't designed for, like using a missile weapon for defense against melee. In RM2, this was just not allowed at all, and that's the way I would prefer it. I would be fine if the parrying used the bow as an improvised melee weapon (e.g. staff), but then the bonus should be the parryer's OB with (melee) staff, not (ranged) bow. Otherwise, the parryer is getting two weapons for the price of one: a fully functional ranged weapon, as well as a full-OB parrying weapon, all for the cost of a single weapon skill.

[Witchking20k]

RMX used an optional rule where you could make a MM (I can't remember the difficulty) using your QU bonus and apply the result as your DB vs. all attacks in a round. It was a nice option to have.

[Hurin]

RMX used an optional rule where you could make a MM (I can't remember the difficulty) using your QU bonus and apply the result as your DB vs. all attacks in a round. It was a nice option to have.

That sounds a lot like what RMU calls 'Evasion'.

I'm wondering where this idea originally came from. Is it in RMSS? Or the RM2 companions?

I can definitely see the rational for it and the upside. The downside is that it can lead to DB inflation, and it is kind of redundant with Qu DB -- which also assumes that you are trying your best to dodge.

[Aspire2Hope]

I think it first appeared with the adrenal moves in what RM companion II? I do think the idea of using you weapon to negate an attack is valid, however, I've always struggled with the concept being applied to other actions. I mean can you negate some of an attack by reducing you directed spell by 50%? Not really. On the other hand, there is something to be said for dropping some of your action to allow you to take evasive action that is beyond your instinct (Qu DB).

*5 mins in still haven't been hit  - still haven't hit anything*

[Peter R]

Thanks Peter, but I was more asking about how much of your OB you would get to add if you don't have a weapon at all. So let's say I never had one to begin with. Puin notes that he would houserule that, "at GM's discretion, you can add some DB." But I don't know how much, and that is the key issue. 100%? 50%? And aside from the houserule, what is the specific rule (RAW)?

I confess I really don't like the idea that someone might get full parry (call it dodge if you want) for using a weapon in a way it wasn't designed for, like using a missile weapon for defense against melee. In RM2, this was just not allowed at all, and that's the way I would prefer it. I would be fine if the parrying used the bow as an improvised melee weapon (e.g. staff), but then the bonus should be the parryer's OB with (melee) staff, not (ranged) bow. Otherwise, the parryer is getting two weapons for the price of one: a fully functional ranged weapon, as well as a full-OB parrying weapon, all for the cost of a single weapon skill.

My reading of RMC's Arms Law on Parrying would be that in the case of an archer caught in melee could parry with their full OB as DB. The rational would be that they are spending the entire 10 seconds avoiding being hit which is just a different way of saying dodging or taking a defensive stance.

A melee fighter with a melee weapon could also parry but if they used their full OB to parry they would get their full OB as DB PLUS the weapon bonus to DB as listed on the  Shield/Parry Table.

If you didn't have a weapon at all there are multiple factors.

• if you have an unarmed combat skill but are not wearing armour or holding an object that could deflect a weapon you would get half your OB as DB
• if you have an object or armour and an unarmed combat skill your get full OB as DB
• if you have no unarmed combat skill you cannot parry as you simply are not trained to dodge beyond your natural Qu bonus to DB

So parrying with a melee weapon is the most efficient as the weapon gives a bonus to DB when used for all out defence.
Parrying with a non-melee weapon or using terrain for defence works but is not as protective.
Parrying without a weapon is possible for people trained to do so but not for people who are not trained to do so.

The essential ingredient is that one must remember that RM2 and RMC are built around a flurry of blows and an attack roll is not representing a single explicit attack but one attack that happened at some point in the round, the one that was most likely to land.

[brole]

Hi all.
I found in RMC AL p29 describes parrying and outlines dodging without a weapon as a 100% activity, dependant on QU, AG or Acrobatics skill.
AL p19 details that it is possible to parry with a missile weapon (2H) although should check for breakage.
CL 8.6 outlines how to tell if a weapon or shield is hit or if an attack misses completely.

[Hurin]

Thanks for the breakdown Peter, and nice find Brole!

So that is quite a change from RM2 to RMC: In RM2, you get 0% of your Ranged weapon OB to DB if you full parry; in RMC, you get 100%.

[brole]

Thanks for the breakdown Peter, and nice find Brole!

So that is quite a change from RM2 to RMC: In RM2, you get 0% of your Ranged weapon OB to DB if you full parry; in RMC, you get 100%.

Yes indeed it is quite a change.
Although I'm thinking it might be better to use a character's weapon brawling skill with their missile weapon instead of their full missile OB for parrying.

[Hurin]

Yes. I think it would be odd to give the full ranged OB vs a melee weapon. Becoming a world class archer shouldnt by itself also make you world class at dodging kicks and sword thrusts.

[intothatdarkness]

I can see having a parrying capability with a crossbow, but not so much with a regular bow.

[Aspire2Hope]

Mind you, if you are strictly parrying with the missile weapon to fend a blow, then you are surely in point-blank range. If you are in the strict old round structure you have already accounted for the shot and so by hurrying the shot even a bow could be used to turn a blow from that opponent with an arrow in his eye .