Topic: If a victim is grappled/held close ... how about multiple dagger attacks 1 rnd?

[C.Tozer]

Hi folks

Just musing over a possible house rule here and would value any thoughts/input ....

Assume a lurking assassin, armed with either a dagger/knife/shank/something small, sharp and pointy, manages to either:

a. surprise their chosen victim from behind and (perhaps not possessing either an ambush skill or even much/any of a skill with a dagger/knife/shank/something small, sharp and pointy), assuming they manage a successful grapple/hold maneuver (or grapple attack?), make several (say 5 - 6?) somewhat frenzied attacks (ie at a minus, say -20 for each attack) on the victim?
These attacks could be literally stabbing in the back or reaching around with the knife/whatever and stabbing repeatedly in the stomach/chest?

OR

b) the same as above but the assassin/attacker approaches and grapples/holds the victim from either the front or side and then makes several fast, uncontrolled attacks on the victim?

Sure some of these attacks are going to be ineffective (perhaps the victim manages to struggle and attacks are missed, or hits the victims hands or the attackers blade glances off a rib due to the rapid attacking actions).

Absolutely there should be some form of maneuver/opportunity for the victim to break free (a strength roll perhaps?).

Sadly there are a number of cases detailed on the internet (and even more unpleasantly some video clips - shudder) showing rapid, frenzy knife/dagger attacks which involve the victim being held by the attacker who is able to attack in very rapid succession with multiple stabs in a matter of seconds.

I'm trying to think of any other weapons which would realistically allow an attacker to be able to hold and then attack a victim and I am struggling to think of one - even with say a small ax/handaxe the attack needs at least a bit of reach/swing to make the axe effective.

What do you think about this idea as a house rule?
Is it realistic? How would you handle it in your game?
How many attacks, assuming the victim can't break free should be allowed in a round?
If you use the close quarter combat skill could this idea be combined?

Thanks and look forward to your thoughts.

Chris   

[jdale]

Rolemaster generally treats all of your efforts to hit your foe over the course of a round as one attack. I would give a bonus on the attack for a target that is grappled and unable to escape, but not multiple attacks (unless they have some other ability allowing multiple attacks). Probably your many rapid attacks will all be to the same general part of the body so summing them up as one attack with one critical is not unreasonable.

[Sable Wyvern]

Is your assassin any good?

Then give them +55 for flank/rear/surprise or the helpless target bonus, or something similar, and no DB for the target. When they easily get an E crit, use their 20+ ranks of ambush to give an excellent chance of a kill (any result of 46+ should do it, lower if they have enough Ambush ranks).

Narrate multiple stabs, with the fatal crit being the most deadly one.

If they can't manage the kill ... looks like the target noticed them at the last moment and shrugged or moved away.

[brole]

As it seems the assassin is not using Ambush I’d look at using Arms Law classic unarmed combat option 7 which adds a third martial arts type: grappling. This is the assassin’s grapple/hold maneuver.

If a grappling critical is scored, the defender is considered grappled.
Obviously if the grapple critical hasn’t incapacitated the defender I’d suggest giving the defender a chance to perform a martial arts sweep and throw in response as the assassin is in a position to be flipped.

Or defender could use a martial arts strike or grapple or brawling but at a penalty.

Alternatively the defender could use reverse stroke skill with their chosen weapon modified by Arms Companion skills such as melee brawling, melee scuffle, close quarters combat. This would depend on the suitability of the weapon.

The assassin's skill at melee scuffle could counteract some of the defender bonuses.

If the defender scores a critical with their counter attack then the grapple is considered broken and then each combatant would make an orientation roll.

If the defender doesn’t score a critical they are still grappled. Then you could use Arms Companion 4.11 for the assassin's extra strikes per round with bonus for prone defender.

As for other weapon to use instead of dagger I guess brass knuckles type of thing or a cloth (like a chloroform attack).



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[Sable Wyvern]

As it seems the assassin is not using Ambush

I'm not sure that's true. Sure, you can break it down into a sneak, a grapple and then a flurry of dagger blows, each as a separate action, but I can't see any way to make that work without seriously hacking the rules and/or resulting in the character being disadvantaged by something intended to create advantage.

I don't see a problem with viewing that whole thing as one ambush manoeuvre. There's no reason (especially if you're trying to kill silently) why the grappling can't be considered part of an ambush attack with a dagger. If the attack succeeds and the opponent was slain, the assassin ends up with a corpse in their arms.

It's not perfect (for example, unless you're improvising even more, either the target is grappled and dead, or completely ungrappled and alive), but I don't see any reason to adhere strictly to the exact rules and mechanics in a situation like this. Instead, I use the best mechanics available, and interpret in light of the circumstances and what the character is trying to achieve.

[brole]

As it seems the assassin is not using Ambush

I'm not sure that's true. Sure, you can break it down into a sneak, a grapple and then a flurry of dagger blows, each as a separate action, but I can't see any way to make that work without seriously hacking the rules and/or resulting in the character being disadvantaged by something intended to create advantage

I agree it would be simpler to just do an ambush.

However the OP asked for a house rule so I've presented one that covers the situation, allowing up to 3 attacks, 1 grapple, 2 dagger instead of 1 ambush attack.

Hi folks

Just musing over a possible house rule here and would value any thoughts/input ....

Assume a lurking assassin, armed with either a dagger/knife/shank/something small, sharp and pointy, manages to either:

a. surprise their chosen victim from behind and (perhaps not possessing either an ambush skill or even much/any of a skill with a dagger

[Sable Wyvern]

Fair enough. More options are never a bad thing.

[Majyk]

You can award multiple attacks but I’d stick with narration of the frenzied effect of having someone “dead to rights”.

As said, throw multiple boni(bonusususes/mali(malusususes) for both OB and DB(Static/Helpless target) in this kinda scenario.
Heck, maybe forego the multiple attacks and reward multiple crits in descending order of what they get from their initial one?
(After all the boni/mali are tallied, the initial attack roll was poor, still, and *only* gives a ‘15C’ Crit on the table lookup.
This means the attack ends up giving additional ‘B’ and ‘A’ criticals, to reflect the law of diminishing, yet deadly, returns!)

It opens up a tonne more special rule scenarios your players will try to finagle from you, but you have to know your audience at the same time.
If they won’t try to leverage this one special move into other areas or you see they try to apply it to every. single. situation, then you have a great bunch of players!

G’luck in your game.

Is your assassin any good?

Then give them +55 for flank/rear/surprise or the helpless target bonus, or something similar, and no DB for the target. When they easily get an E crit, use their 20+ ranks of ambush to give an excellent chance of a kill (any result of 46+ should do it, lower if they have enough Ambush ranks).

Narrate multiple stabs, with the fatal crit being the most deadly one.

If they can't manage the kill ... looks like the target noticed them at the last moment and shrugged or moved away.

[C.Tozer]

Thanks all .... I may have thrown the cat among the pigeons by using the word "assassin".

What I was really trying to get my head around is the potential of an attacker to attempt to firstly grapple/hold their victim and then, assuming the victim is securely held/unable to move, follow up with a flurry of multiple stabs with a short bladed knife/dagger or shank.
The attack could come from behind, from the side, or the front (imagine a crowd on a street with limited movement and that attacker comes directly front on for example).

I do take the point that the way Rolemaster rules are meant to work is that only one attack should be permitted per round and one way to handle a flurry of attacks is;

"Narrate multiple stabs, with the fatal crit being the most deadly one. If they can't manage the kill ... looks like the target noticed them at the last moment and shrugged or moved away."

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments on the matter but on reflection I am going to create a house rule to allow such an attack in my games.

 

[C.Tozer]

Thanks Majyk ... yeah generally my players have been up for a good game rather than simply see who can warp the rules to their own advantage.

You can award multiple attacks but I’d stick with narration of the frenzied effect of having someone “dead to rights”.

As said, throw multiple boni(bonusususes/mali(malusususes) for both OB and DB(Static/Helpless target) in this kinda scenario.
Heck, maybe forego the multiple attacks and reward multiple crits in descending order of what they get from their initial one?
(After all the boni/mali are tallied, the initial attack roll was poor, still, and *only* gives a ‘15C’ Crit on the table lookup.
This means the attack ends up giving additional ‘B’ and ‘A’ criticals, to reflect the law of diminishing, yet deadly, returns!)

It opens up a tonne more special rule scenarios your players will try to finagle from you, but you have to know your audience at the same time.
If they won’t try to leverage this one special move into other areas or you see they try to apply it to every. single. situation, then you have a great bunch of players!

G’luck in your game.

Is your assassin any good?

Then give them +55 for flank/rear/surprise or the helpless target bonus, or something similar, and no DB for the target. When they easily get an E crit, use their 20+ ranks of ambush to give an excellent chance of a kill (any result of 46+ should do it, lower if they have enough Ambush ranks).

Narrate multiple stabs, with the fatal crit being the most deadly one.

If they can't manage the kill ... looks like the target noticed them at the last moment and shrugged or moved away.

[C.Tozer]

A good example of what I am trying to replicate with my home rules is like this clip from the Red Wedding

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rgDvP39Lqw

See at 1:30 for the type of attack I mean ...

[Spectre771]

An optional skill from Arms Companion is Increase Wounds.  This is similar to what you are describing and works better when the target is grappled but like any other complex skill, it adds more bookkeeping to your combat round.

You make your attack and if you get a critical, you have the option to leave the weapon embedded in the target and to increase the damage and critical on your following round instead of rolling a new attack.