Topic: Staves/wands or Runes "intrinsically" meaning

[Jengada]

In the modifier table for Staves and Wands and Runes, there is an entry that says "+30 if character can cast the spell intrinsically". Does that mean if the spell is from the character's realm? (It comes right after "-30 if the character's realm of magic differs from the realm of the spell(s), and the other entries are sort of paired opposites, so this makes some sense) Or does it mean the character has learned the spell? Does this modifier require that the character learned the version from the same realm, if the spell exists in more than one realm?

[Nightblade42]

I think it means that the spell being cast by the staff/wand/rod/rune/etc… is also known by the wielder/user of the staff/wand/rod/rune/etc… then they receive the +30 bonus.

Example: Joe the Mage owns a Staff of Firebolts (casts a +0 Firebolt up to twice daily).  He also knows Fire Law (Mage Base List) to level 10.  As such, when he casts the Firebolt from the staff, he gets +30 to his roll.

Nightblade ->--

[Sable Wyvern]

Yep, it's a bonus to attune with the item if you are already capable of casting the spell without the item.

[Majyk]

I think it means that the spell being cast by the staff/wand/rod/rune/etc… is also known by the wielder/user.

Example: Joe the Mage owns a Staff of Firebolts (casts a +0 Firebolt up to twice daily).  He also knows Fire Law (Mage Base List) to level 10.  As such, when he casts the Firebolt from the staff, he gets +30 to his roll.
Nightblade ->--

Yup.

I know it was just a for instance example, but one thing of note that I just learned in re-reading much of the rules for a new online game I joined, is that Directed Spell items(Wands/Rods/Staves) actually will never be a +0 item.

Look it up. 
Free bonii to the firer of an elemental W/R/S - up to a +60!

[Jengada]

Thanks for the replies. That's how I had always interpreted it, but figured I'd double-check as it's coming up with new players.

[Sable Wyvern]

Yup.

I know it was just a for instance example, but one thing of note that I just learned in re-reading much of the rules for a new online game I joined, is that Directed Spell items(Wands/Rods/Staves) actually will never be a +0 item.

Look it up. 
Free bonii to the firer of an elemental W/R/S - up to a +60!

Eh? Maybe it's an RM2 thing I've forgotten (although I was looking through the RM2 rules for Staves/Wands not too long ago), but in RMSS:

Attunement (Staves/Wands) is used to identify and initially attune to an item.

It may also be required to activate an identified item, if the spell is of a higher level or different realm to the wielder.

However, a staff of firebolts, once activated, would still use the normal directed spells skill for the attack roll.

[Majyk]

Right, attunement of an item needs to happen.

It is in the creation of the item, though.
A default bonus based on item level(highest level spell needed in order to even create the item) is multiplied by the usual rank progression to derive a Directed Spells bonus that an item inherently has.

A Staff has an item level of 15 so a +60 Directed Spells bonus(5*10 ranks + 2*5 ranks).

_{When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list. The level of the item is also used as the attacker’s level for purposes of Resistance Rolls resulting from the item’s attack(s) (or target’s level if the item must make an RR). It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.}

I swear, as an RM Player and GM since the late 80s, that every reading of a book I do - more rules are missed than known about!
 

[Jengada]

I swear, as an RM Player and GM since the late 80s, that every reading of a book I do - more rules are missed than known about!
 

THAT is absolutely true! And it's exactly why I find myself posting questions that I really feel I should already know, given that I've been playing since the early 80s. I check the RM2 books, I check the RMSS books for updates and perspective, and then I post here.

[Witchking20k]

Intrinsically would imply that the spell is an innate ability.  Like a Titans use of a mentalism list up to their level.  If that Titan were trying to attune to an item that contained a spell from that spell list they would receive a bonus.   

[Sable Wyvern]

Right, attunement of an item needs to happen.

It is in the creation of the item, though.
A default bonus based on item level(highest level spell needed in order to even create the item) is multiplied by the usual rank progression to derive a Directed Spells bonus that an item inherently has.

A Staff has an item level of 15 so a +60 Directed Spells bonus(5*10 ranks + 2*5 ranks).

_{When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list. The level of the item is also used as the attacker’s level for purposes of Resistance Rolls resulting from the item’s attack(s) (or target’s level if the item must make an RR). It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.}

I swear, as an RM Player and GM since the late 80s, that every reading of a book I do - more rules are missed than known about!
 

Ah. I vaguely recall knowing that once.

[Sable Wyvern]

Intrinsically would imply that the spell is an innate ability.  Like a Titans use of a mentalism list up to their level.  If that Titan were trying to attune to an item that contained a spell from that spell list they would receive a bonus.

By the strictest possible reading, maybe. However, in context, that seems highly unlikely to have been the intention.

If you can cast a spell without outside assistance, this is certainly far more intrinsic than requiring an item to do so.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

_{When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list. The level of the item is also used as the attacker’s level for purposes of Resistance Rolls resulting from the item’s attack(s) (or target’s level if the item must make an RR). It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.}

Book, chapter, page, please?

[Malleable]

Intrinsically means that the caster can cast the spell, on her own, without the item.  i.e. they know the spell list up to the level of the spell.

And I have never heard of a staff or wand automatically having a bonus to Directed Spells.  I've always played that you have to use your own Directed Spells skill.  Its not like a sword has automatic bonus.

My question is how much percentage activity does using a staff/wand take?
If you are already attuned to a staff/wand what do you roll for the spell to go off?
We've been playing that the spells are cast instantly, but saying it still takes 90% activity (kinda splitting the difference on usefulness).
(And activating runes - I'm still confused on where the rules are on this)

Mal

[Jengada]

If you are already attuned to a staff/wand what do you roll for the spell to go off?
We've been playing that the spells are cast instantly, but saying it still takes 90% activity (kinda splitting the difference on usefulness).
(And activating runes - I'm still confused on where the rules are on this)

Mal

Spell Law 6.3 has casting time based on character vs. spell level, using the same 3 classes for spell casting time as if the player was casting it without the device. What percentage of activity it takes will probably depend on which tactical system you use, but the straightforward extrapolation of the 3 classes would be that rounds of prep take 90% activity, and the casting round takes 75% activity (6.2).

[Malleable]

Thanks Jengada!

Mal

[Nightblade42]

_{When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list. The level of the item is also used as the attacker’s level for purposes of Resistance Rolls resulting from the item’s attack(s) (or target’s level if the item must make an RR). It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.}

Book, chapter, page, please?

I second that.  That sounds like something from Alchemy Companion (maybe?).  I just re-read the Item Creation Rules in SL (Red Border 1989 Edition) & counldn't find anything about Item Levels.  I also read sections 6.2 & 6.3 (as mentioned above) & they say nothing about this either.  And even section 8.3.2 Resistance Rolls makes no mention of item level beyond that the level of the spell cast from the item is the level of effect. And I couldn't find anything either under the BAR rules.

Nightblade ->--

[Nightblade42]

A Staff has an item level of 15 so a +60 Directed Spells bonus(5*10 ranks + 2*5 ranks).

Not sure how this would work as, according to the Item Characteristics Chart (p.25 SL (1989 Red Border Version)), a Staff's Maximum Spell Level is 10.  So if the "inherent bonus rule" is the case, the bonus would only be a maximum of +50.

Nightblade ->--

[Majyk]

Sorry for missing this and not replying sooner!
Indeed, this was for an RMFRP campaign, currently in as a Player.

Will check on citing info re:page and book.
Good sleuth work on checking RM2 and apologies I didn’t catch this post at the time to head you off at the pass.

BRB.

EDIT:
YUP, my bad.  RMFRP Treasure Companion, Page 40 under header Level:
“An item’s level is the highest level spell used in creating the item. This measure has several effects. It determines the duration and effects of the spells it that are imbedded in it. When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list...

...It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.“

So, not 5/2/1/.5/0 but 3/ and getting worse from there.

Sorry for the confusion of bleeding RMFRP into RM2, all.  I think I got excited noting free Dir. Spell boni for Bolt Spell Magic Items, as a Player, and lost my sense of RM versioning! 

[Majyk]

So, the above noted, now.
Whaddya think?
Too powerful?

I do like it as it flavours up how powerful a Lightning Bolt is versus a Shock Bolt since most newer RM versions seem to reduce attacks to the same tables with mali(maluses) depending upn attack form(all slashing weapons on same table but Rapier is say +15 while Dagger is -30, etc.).

[Nightblade42]

Sorry for missing this and not replying sooner!
Indeed, this was for an RMFRP campaign, currently in as a Player.

Will check on citing info re:page and book.
Good sleuth work on checking RM2 and apologies I didn’t catch this post at the time to head you off at the pass.

BRB.

EDIT:
YUP, my bad.  RMFRP Treasure Companion, Page 40 under header Level:
“An item’s level is the highest level spell used in creating the item. This measure has several effects. It determines the duration and effects of the spells it that are imbedded in it. When determining bonuses for Base Attack Rolls (and Elemental Ball Attacks), the item’s level is treated as the number of ranks in the spell list...

...It is treated as the number of ranks of the Directed Spell skill (using the category progression) that an item has as a bonus to any bolt spells placed in it.“

So, not 5/2/1/.5/0 but 3/ and getting worse from there.

Sorry for the confusion of bleeding RMFRP into RM2, all.  I think I got excited noting free Dir. Spell boni for Bolt Spell Magic Items, as a Player, and lost my sense of RM versioning! 

It's all good.  It's not like there aren't enough rules in enough books or anything… 

Nightblade ->--