Topic: Dealing with difficult players... Tips and Advice

[Druss_the_Legend]

Hey Gamemasters. Who out there has had to deal with a difficult player before?

what sort of problems/issues did they create?
how did you deal with them?

[bpowell]

So strange you mention this.  I had an issue this weekend at a Convention.  I was running games for another system (I know boo...hiss) and I had a player come to the table and was determined to be a jerk just to spoil the game for everyone.

The first part of the scenario was that they were at a star Wars convention (in costume of course.. it was the theme of the Con).  I was using the scene to get the players into character and have a few laughs.  I put a small kid (7 or so being a thoughtless jerk).  It as done just to give them something to do.  The player looks at me and asks me if he could move and trip the kid...I told him to let me know how he was going to do it.  He then proceeded to spend 2 of his 3 bennies to make it go off.  I thought he was just being funny at the moment and made a properly cinematic scene of it.  Then he started throwing bottles at the kid.  I mentioned that they were plastic and he said "No! The glass ones".

The party stops him (again good Role playing) and I think the issue is done.  He then goes along and causes one issue after another.  When one of the players asks why, his comment is "I hate geeks!"  Since I wrote the scenario and character I was confused.

I took a break and pulled the player aside.  I asked him why he was being a jerk.  He smirked and said "I hate playing good characters, they are boring.  I always make them evil."  I was taken aback.  In the blurb I mentioned "heroes saving the world".  So I figured he was just a 8 year old kid in a grown up body.  I then made sure he could not disrupt the story too much.  The player started whining because the healer would not heal his character.  I finally was fed up and the player in his ultimate act of disruption told me he had to leave the slot over an hour early.  Once he as gone it settled down.  But I felt the other players had a poor time because of it.  I apologized to the group, and they were gracious enough to let it go.  Since most of these player are good friends they know me (one was actually my wife).  One of the guys said, "I was wondering if you were going to rip his head off.  Glad you didn't, but it would have been fun to watch."

Since I was representing not only myself, but the group that was putting on the show I did not feel I could just kick the player to the curb.  Although later I spoke with the group leadership and we all agreed that is what we do.  We tell the player to leave the table and get a refund.  The purpose of the show is to raise money for charity, so this option could hurt a lot of folks.  But we need to maintain control and provide fun for as many of the players as possible.

A few years back in my home campaign I had a player that became increasingly disruptive.  It was a married couple and they were always late causing the game to be later running.  Then as time went on the player did things that they knew would irritate others at the table.  Most of the time we just worked around it.

Trust me we all have bad days.  Life comes up and we need to deal with it.  When it happens we all give the person some slack.  Normally when working around the issue it helps them loosen up and the moment passes.  And normally the player comments on the fact that they were disruptive in the game to the group, and apologizes.

But in this case the player caused more and more issues.  In fact, I had several players comment that the fun of the game had dissipated.  Then after the player was over 2 hours late (we play for 6 hours) and then proceeded to take call after call from a child and even pushed the minis off the map and drew on my map, I blew up.  I stopped the game and thanked everyone for coming and aborted the session.

It was not my finest moment.  Needless to say the group disintegrated.  We reformed a few weeks later with most of the same players and a few new ones.  It has become a hugely successful game.  But I still feel bad I lost my temper.

So after the War and Peace above here is how I would suggest you handle it.

1)  Remain calm - losing you temper will cause issues.  Even if the person sorely deserves it, try to take the moral high ground.  If you can it might save the group and in the end might keep a friend.

2)  See if there is an external source - pull the player aside and ask if there is anything wrong and if you can help.  I had a player that was short rent money once.  The group all chipped in and helped him out.  He repaid us a few weeks later.  We kept he group together and actually helped out a fellow person.

3)  Ask the player in private why they are being disruptive - is it a perceived character flaw?  Is is just how that person starts adventures?  Try to work out the issue.

4)  Probation - All new players with my group are on probation for the first few games.  This is understood.  I want to ensure a good group mechanic.  Most players agree to this and understand.  If the player does not fit the game ask them to leave. Try to do this in a calm and reasonable manner.

Hope this helps.

-BP

[Druss_the_Legend]

So strange you mention this.  I had an issue this weekend at a Convention.  I was running games for another system (I know boo...hiss) and I had a player come to the table and was determined to be a jerk just to spoil the game for everyone.

The first part of the scenario was that they were at a star Wars convention (in costume of course.. it was the theme of the Con).  I was using the scene to get the players into character and have a few laughs.  I put a small kid (7 or so being a thoughtless jerk).  It as done just to give them something to do.  The player looks at me and asks me if he could move and trip the kid...I told him to let me know how he was going to do it.  He then proceeded to spend 2 of his 3 bennies to make it go off.  I thought he was just being funny at the moment and made a properly cinematic scene of it.  Then he started throwing bottles at the kid.  I mentioned that they were plastic and he said "No! The glass ones".

The party stops him (again good Role playing) and I think the issue is done.  He then goes along and causes one issue after another.  When one of the players asks why, his comment is "I hate geeks!"  Since I wrote the scenario and character I was confused.

I took a break and pulled the player aside.  I asked him why he was being a jerk.  He smirked and said "I hate playing good characters, they are boring.  I always make them evil."  I was taken aback.  In the blurb I mentioned "heroes saving the world".  So I figured he was just a 8 year old kid in a grown up body.  I then made sure he could not disrupt the story too much.  The player started whining because the healer would not heal his character.  I finally was fed up and the player in his ultimate act of disruption told me he had to leave the slot over an hour early.  Once he as gone it settled down.  But I felt the other players had a poor time because of it.  I apologized to the group, and they were gracious enough to let it go.  Since most of these player are good friends they know me (one was actually my wife).  One of the guys said, "I was wondering if you were going to rip his head off.  Glad you didn't, but it would have been fun to watch."

Since I was representing not only myself, but the group that was putting on the show I did not feel I could just kick the player to the curb.  Although later I spoke with the group leadership and we all agreed that is what we do.  We tell the player to leave the table and get a refund.  The purpose of the show is to raise money for charity, so this option could hurt a lot of folks.  But we need to maintain control and provide fun for as many of the players as possible.

A few years back in my home campaign I had a player that became increasingly disruptive.  It was a married couple and they were always late causing the game to be later running.  Then as time went on the player did things that they knew would irritate others at the table.  Most of the time we just worked around it.

Trust me we all have bad days.  Life comes up and we need to deal with it.  When it happens we all give the person some slack.  Normally when working around the issue it helps them loosen up and the moment passes.  And normally the player comments on the fact that they were disruptive in the game to the group, and apologizes.

But in this case the player caused more and more issues.  In fact, I had several players comment that the fun of the game had dissipated.  Then after the player was over 2 hours late (we play for 6 hours) and then proceeded to take call after call from a child and even pushed the minis off the map and drew on my map, I blew up.  I stopped the game and thanked everyone for coming and aborted the session.

It was not my finest moment.  Needless to say the group disintegrated.  We reformed a few weeks later with most of the same players and a few new ones.  It has become a hugely successful game.  But I still feel bad I lost my temper.

So after the War and Peace above here is how I would suggest you handle it.

1)  Remain calm - losing you temper will cause issues.  Even if the person sorely deserves it, try to take the moral high ground.  If you can it might save the group and in the end might keep a friend.

2)  See if there is an external source - pull the player aside and ask if there is anything wrong and if you can help.  I had a player that was short rent money once.  The group all chipped in and helped him out.  He repaid us a few weeks later.  We kept he group together and actually helped out a fellow person.

3)  Ask the player in private why they are being disruptive - is it a perceived character flaw?  Is is just how that person starts adventures?  Try to work out the issue.

4)  Probation - All new players with my group are on probation for the first few games.  This is understood.  I want to ensure a good group mechanic.  Most players agree to this and understand.  If the player does not fit the game ask them to leave. Try to do this in a calm and reasonable manner.

Hope this helps.

-BP

thanks for sharing. this is good advice for us all for how to handle disruptive players.
i play exclusively online now... rolemaster but also D&D and Gamma World. I GM the roelmaster campaign. we have just recently introduced a new player and he has been great actually. the one player who had causes some minor issues has just taken up extra time offline with developing his character as well as online by taking a long to to make decisions. he always looks for different options as choices and wants to know everything before deciding on a course of action. he often attempts outside the box actions/manouvers with his character, some of which actually come off. i have handled him by limiting his choices where i can... if i give him an inch he takes several miles. for the most part this has worked pretty well although he is pretty demanding even in between live adventures and i seem to be spending long periods of time sorting out his questions and on occasion giving him some special one-to-one missions offline. he just soaks up lots of extra time and its been a real learning curve managing his demands and questions at times.

[bpowell]

So the player is not so much disruptive as he/she is "needy".  This is a bit different.  Let me tell you how I handle things like that.

1)  The player "thinking outside of the box" - Personally during the game I love this.  I have seen players do the darnest things.  Sometime is works and it is epic, other times they fail and it leads to a great story (I have even had Bard, in game, recount both the successes and for comic relief the failures.)  I write for several different systems (I know....blasphemy!!!)  I always ask my wife to play test the module, not just because I enjoy gaming with her, but because she can break a module every which way.  She continually thinks outside of the box. "If I use this spell to do this can I then do that?"  Perfect example, during a session she had Projected Light running (Palm of your hand becomes a flashlight) nothing offensive correct?  Then while exploring a cave complex they were attacked by goblins.  She then used the spell to temporarily blind an attacker.  Hmmmm....how to handle this?  I allowed it and from then on the Projected Light spell had an offensive ability in my world.

I find that this makes me a better Judge/DM.  But I also must limit this kind of thing or else the players can get out of hand.  I have found that after they try something a bit outside the rules and I do not allow it ("Can  fire a Shock Bolt, have it ricochet off the mirror, hit the fighters shield and then strike the goblin...nothing but net?"), or that I call an Absurd maneuver and explain all that it entails.  Most of the time they quickly learn what my boundaries are.  But from time to time they try to push them.

2) A "Round Clock" - While it is not as critical in out RP session I have a friend that takes FOREVER to make a move in board games.  He thinks each move is a chess move between world class players.  His wife has taken to bringing an egg timer to the game.  While this is hilarious when she pulls it out, it limits the time he can delay and slow the game down.  I have used this idea and my players know they have a limited amount of time to respond in game.  I spend a few hours in set up before each game.  They each get a written recap of the last session, and a written description of where they are (was provided in a document when we started) this is what the character knows.  I am blessed to have a group of outstanding Roleplayers so they use this knowledge in game.  The rest is "fog of War" which they must push back in game.

I normally allow a player about 1-2 minutes to describe what he/she is doing in combat and then act.  If they cannot do it they hold.  I also use a map that all can see, this stops the "Where am I?" questions.

3) "Hot Seat" - Sometimes I feel a player is being left out.  In this case I come up with an In Game "Hot Seat".  I have something that is "in character" for a particular players character that they see or learn.  It makes the character the party leader for a session or two. This prevents a single player from dominating the game session after session.  I had to do this because I know if I am allowed to do it I will just bulldozer everyone in a session (I am a very dynamic -my wife's description- role player).  Not only does this cause the quieter players to come forward, it makes the more outgoing to take a back seat from time to time.

4) Metagaming -  I do have a player that uses minor plot points to try to look beyond the obvious story line.  She is looking to see why things are happening during game.  This I handle offline if I can or remove her character (trance or the like) during the game.  Since this normally reduces the XP she receives from the session (She was not there) it has become rare.  But she has like 200 pages of extra material for the game that she metagamed.  I have two other players that do this to a lesser extent.  For us this is not too bad since we meet once a month, so I have time to do this.

I hope this give you some ideas how to handle these issues.

-BP

[Cory Magel]

Well, bad players can create all kinds of issues.  We've never had anyone really bad, to the point of removing them immediately, but there have been a few people over the years that were simply never invited back.

Obviously a side-talk would be the first step.  If they continued to be mildly annoying, not to the point of ruining others fun, I'd probably just continue as normal and they would not get another invite.  But if I had to remove someone on the spot it would depend on how bad they were being.  If they were being continually and pretty much intentionally disruptive I'd simply end the session short (and possibly even continue it in an hour with everyone else) and they would not be invited back.  If it was a convention where peoples time is even more valuable or if it was directed at specific other players the offending persons character would do something like suddenly die of a brain aneurysm and I'd let them know they can leave.

[Spectre771]

The above examples are pretty extreme, and in the first example, pretty darned rude.  At the very least, I probably would have told the person to leave the Con and I would have refunded him out of my own pocket so the charity didn't suffer.  Wanting to play an 'evil' character is no excuse.  We've had plenty of campaigns where plays took evil characters and played them extremely well and it wasn't disruptive to the players.  Maybe it caused issues for the PC's in game, but everyone had fun with it and adjusted their actions, but the story was still cohesive.

For me, the 'difficult' player is the Meta-gamer.  The cheaters are simple to deal with but Meta-gamers always rub me the wrong way. 

Cheaters would always get 1, 2, or maybe 3 columns more difficult on the MM tables.

Meta-gamers were a little more of a challenge.  First, I would keep giving friendly reminders that "YOU know there is something behind the door, your PC doesn't."  "You, John, know you rolled poorly, but Hrun The Barbarian has no idea what a dice roll is.  He only knows that he tried to pull the sword out of the stone and he couldn't do it."

For those players, after several friendly reminders, I change the difficulty for that player.

Player: Well, I know they are hiding there so I'm going to use this door instead.
GM: You open the door and a crossbow trap fires.  +75 Range bonus, +25 Surprise bonus only magical DB allowed.  +1 severity critical.

Player:  I know he stole statuette so I follow him.
(other PC's were dealing with this situation, not the 'difficult player' as his PC was elsewhere in game.)

GM:  How?  Your character was in the tavern at the time.  He wasn't even near the mansion.
Player:  Well, I know he has it so I follow him. Can I roll Stalk/Hide?
GM:  Sure.  The guy you're stalking turns around and looks you square in the eye and says "Why are you following me, you dog?  Trying to pick my pockets are ya?  Guards!!!  He tried to pick my pockets!"
GM:  Two town guards approach you as the other guy runs away into the crowd.  Their weapons are drawn and they order you to stand still.


I only do those steps after several warnings.  I don't want to manipulate the game like that, but sometimes subtle reminders don't work and the meta-gaming takes away from all the hard work and planning I put into the session and the other players who are trying to play their PC's are suffering for it.  In the end, I award bonus XP for PC's who stayed in character, even to their own detriment. 

Many times I've said "I know there's a darned fire trap there but.... arrgh, crap.  I open the door and go in...."

[bpowell]

The above examples are pretty extreme, and in the first example, pretty darned rude.  At the very least, I probably would have told the person to leave the Con and I would have refunded him out of my own pocket so the charity didn't suffer.  Wanting to play an 'evil' character is no excuse.  We've had plenty of campaigns where plays took evil characters and played them extremely well and it wasn't disruptive to the players.  Maybe it caused issues for the PC's in game, but everyone had fun with it and adjusted their actions, but the story was still cohesive.
 

I guess the player "wanting to play evil" was so bad at other tables that the group I was representing has set policies that we will eject any disruptive player.  This was posted on the groups message board and he responded "Hehehehe old guys can't handle me!"  If the player was 14 then I could understand it, but he was like 25.  Sad.

For me, the 'difficult' player is the Meta-gamer.  The cheaters are simple to deal with but Meta-gamers always rub me the wrong way. 

I am blessed with a very good group of current players for my home campaign.  Our thief is a woman that my wife has known for at least 15 years and one of the best Role Players I have meet.  She throws her rolls for detecting traps and if she "blows" a roll the whole party groans and you can see them physically cringing.  There is a secondary "trap finder" in the party, but I never get the "well she might have missed the trap" garbage.  They normally check things together and the conversation around the table might be whether character A helped at all, they never wait until the blown roll and then have the backup roll.

The "teleporting" character is something I see in running kids (8 years old and up).  They get so excited they want to do EVERYTHING.  But I can gently tell them they are not there and they calm down.  One boy was told you are not there and ran to where the others were, by the time his character got there they had moved on.  He was like "Hey, I spent all my time running back and forth!"  My answer..."Yes, yes you did."  The next game he focused on what his character was doing and did not split the party.

The player that drives me crazy is the one that "Knows it all".  When I was with the last Middle Earth Role Playing effort (by another company) the worldwide campaign refused to let players play Noldor characters.  The reason was a player that build a Noldor for his wife and spent the next three games trying to convince the GM that she knew all of the Lore "because she had been there at the beginning of time."  Easy resolution...no more Noldor.

My home campaign is very "fog of war".  The characters are finding out things as they go along.  They go to new places and must learn who is good and who is bad.  Sometimes I get the "I am from around here...what do I remember?"  That I will allow.  The one where their father visited here once....not so much.  I let the person (a shy type) pull it once and told her that the person was very sweet and caring.  She mistook it for a healers house and ended up in a brothel.  The role playing for her to get out of that lead to a memorable evening.

-BP

[GalaionEmpire]

I have had on two occasions the worst players imaginable. The first was in a game I was running he would wiser under his breath at other players. Nothing in game either like calling them names but only so they could to her. To start with two of the other players thought it was just them, but they being brothers talked to each other about it and from there the situation went down hill with them threshing to kick the crap out of him. He stopped showing up fixing that one. And I as a GM was to blame for this one as I was the one who had brought him to the game.
The other one I was a player in and one of the other players had brought him in to the game. It was a few months after we had started and we had added a two other players as well as this very bad one some of my actions had resulted in half the party getting killed. It was in part planed and also happy accident I switched out my PC and one of the new players came in the the party as my new PC's partner. The remnants of the party was forced to move to a new city in game and this is were the bad player joined in and the GM changed so the game became more political. To frame this a little better the bad player was playing an outcast and trying to make political maneuvers against party members one of them being me, but before I get a chance to deal with him he crosses the local crime boss one of the other players that had come in at the same time and that's it he gets his PC dead, he throws a fit about it and storms out never to return. Now what mad him a bad player is that he wanted special treatment during creation and then used all sorts of out character knowledge, then claims that that's what every one else is doing. One of the players sort of stayed in touch with him and had a few real life incidents with him, to the effect that he wasn't just a bad gamer but not a very good person either.

So my philosophy is now do a little leg work look in to people first as in get to know your them before there your players. Although the first one was the only one I had any personal problems with. I think the two of them were a little mentally unstable so watch out for that.

[bpowell]

So my philosophy is now do a little leg work look in to people first as in get to know your them before there your players. Although the first one was the only one I had any personal problems with. I think the two of them were a little mentally unstable so watch out for that.

Mentally unstable players?!?!?!  GASP!  Say it is not so.  Most "normals" think we are all mentally unstable.  I have been playing a long time (yes, I am OLD).  I remember when doctors (pediatricians) used to tell parents that playing D&D would stunt their children's mental health.  (Or my Mom was told that).  But now they tell parents it is good for kids because to can "help them learn ways to work in a group to solve issues peacefully" (Or so my kids pediatrician told us).  Strange how things change. 

-BP

[jdale]

Some people it's just better not to have in your group. Awkward but different gaming styles are not always compatible.

We've mainly had issues with characters arguing too much. It helped to sit everyone down and discuss out of game. Doesn't matter if it's good roleplaying, if it's disruptive and detracts from everyone enjoying the game, it's time for the character(s) to change.

We also ran into an issue with differing goals in the party. The GM had left things very open expecting we would all go a certain way in our character's goals and opinions. Half the party did, half the party went the other way. That fell apart, so we started a new game and had a discussion about how we could make a more unified party. We ended up settling on everyone being from the same large, influential family. Of course there are differences of opinion, style, and career, but there is also a core loyalty to the family (and if anyone goes against that, the whole family will come down on them).

In both cases, I think the important thing was to discuss it out of game, and come to consensus about what kind of game we wanted to play. If you can't at least reach a compromise on that, you'll never resolve the smaller stuff either.

[Cory Magel]

Talking about mentally unstable players did remind me of someone, but it was a GM we ran under for a while rather than a player.  We'd met him through mutual friends and wanted to give our usual GM a break/chance to be a PC.

In the end, the guy was the classic text-book example of the kind of gamer who was going to give the hobby a bad game.  He was just the socially awkward nerd/geek that would get picked on at school at first, but the more we got to know him the more we started to see he was a little 'off' in other ways.  I won't go into it all, but the best example is probably the fact that he carried around a bottle of bleach water when in high school.  Why?  Apparently so that if he was beat up or otherwise completely humiliated he could drink it to commit suicide.  Even given his other oddities it took us a bit to realize he was serious.  It wasn't long after most of us found reasons to bow out of the game.

[Forkbeard]

Apologies if this has already been said, but the problem isn't so much about the quirks of an individual player but moreover about player disparity.

An example of this is when one (or more) players wish to operate at the microscopic level and others prefer to press on to bigger and better things. In short one group is literally wanting time to standstill whilst another is falling asleep with the boredom.

For another example we have players who want to get stuck into the violence and another hoping to shy away from it.

Another issue is the disparity between game master (how I hate that term) and the players.

An example of this, and a personal one at that, is when a group of players want to make constant childish jokes, and hence ruin the otherwise dark and deeply rich narrative the GM has poured his heart and soul into creating for the last 3 months. I may have overstated the personal nature of that experience

F'beard

[Belgerond]

My philosophy for game mastering is at my gameworld is allways "open".
I do not take anything in personal level. I lead the game with no mercy and my players know it, and they like it. They know at their characters can die, but their caharcter can allso succes in game. I have created mentality at as GM i'm allways neutral, calm and my personal motivation or thoughts do not affect the game. In my gameworld (in every game) world is total open. I made or use campaings and adventures, but if players dont want to follow them, i dont mind.
As GM, if you love too much your story, adventure, etc.. players wont enjoy the game because your focus is in wrong direction!

Experience of 20 years as GM, i have notice at players appreciate this philosophy, because they know at if they are tired and do stupid things with their characters, the characters will pay the price! If they have good concentration, their characters can be much more succesful.

So, my advice to you is at "don't ever argue with players about character issues". Just lead the game and let the game world give feedback on stupidity!!
However, be open about game rules, you can discuss about game rules with players and they can be right! In the end GM have the last word with interpretation of gamerules but dont be a stubborn in that area because players dont like dictators!