Topic: Poking Sacred Cows pt. 2: What’s wrong with RM Magic Items

[B Hanson]

Time to step out of our mental boxes. So imagine you are re-writing alchemy & magical item creation spells from scratch. From the ground up. What type of magic items should be possible using the existing spell framework? (note: there was some great work in Alchemy Companion and I believe this is being tackled for RMU). Based on my own rewrite, a few of my observations:

1.   Normal spell casting rules don’t apply well to creating magic items.
2.   “Alchemy” spells aren’t really Essence realm.
3.   Depending on your setting and views, channeling magic items should really be keyed to, and only used by followers of the particular Diety.
4.   To me, based on how it works, it doesn’t make sense that mentalism spells can be imbedded into items.
5.   Many RM magic items are “perpetual motion” machines. A finite investment of spellcasting can produce a magic item that will then generate magical effects in PERPETUITY.

I started SL revised based on a simple formula that I used as a foundation for all magic.

Spell Effect = Form + Will + Power.

You need all 3 to generate a spell effect. A wand of firebolts might have charges (power) and form (firebolt spell imbedded) but can’t cast unless there is will (user). Applying this formula to magic items created some real issues—basically many magic items are tapping an endless supply of power. The big 3:

• Daily X Items: An endless supply of a spell for X times a day. Forever.
  Power Multipliers. Talk about the Cornucopia of Plenty! Spend PP’s to create an item that gives you X times your PP’s! Forever.
  Constant Items: Yep. All the time. Forever.

Hey, it’s make believe, suspension of disbelief is required. They are magical items. I get it. However…I wanted to create a spell system that could generate logical magical items without needed “one off” rules or leaps of logic. At the same time I didn’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Terry makes cool items in his SW material!

One caveat. Magic Ritual is a great mechanism for creating one-off items, unique items, artifacts or to allow non-spell casters to create magic items.

However I did want a spell casting mechanism that could make magic items, generate new types of magic items featured in a wider sampling of fantasy literature, useable within normal gameplay AND stayed true to the magical equation: effect = form + power + will. Let’s tackle the big 3:

1.   Daily X Items. These are featured quite prominently in RM and SW supplements. They are useful items and allow PC’s to augment their spell abilities. But as is, they don’t meet the requirements of the equation: there is no source of power to continually cast the imbedded spell. Easy solution—the user needs to supply the PP’s. So our solution is that the Daily X Imbed is the number of times the “Form” replenishes, but the user must supply the “will” and the “PP’s”. It nerfs the items a bit, by adding a cost to using them. Plus it requires non spellusers to develop PP’s in order to access Daily X items.

2.   Power Multipliers. We use SW as our setting so both PP multipliers (amplifiers) and PP storage (holds X lvls of spells or X amounts of PP’s) are crystals. An easy solution, but perhaps one that is setting specific. We don’t use +X Adders. They don’t really make sense and they created a lot of disputes on casting lvl etc. It’s simpler to have PP storage and the caster to tap that reservoir to cast another spell than the fuzzy nature of an Adder.

3.   Constant Items. Even a lowly +5 magic sword is a constant, permanent enchantment. That should be a rigorous item to make, but it’s basically a low level magic item. Again, we use the SW setting as our solution. SW & RM already has superior materials and inherently enchanted materials with bonuses.  Rather than enchant a +5 sword, you just forge one from enchanted material. Problem solved. So what about other constant items? +10 to dB cloaks, rings of fire protection etc? Our solution: "Investiture". Enchanters (what RM calls alchemists—alchemists are a whole other thing in our rules) must invest some of themselves, their “lifeforce” simultaneously as the spell casting & creation process. Basically 1pt temp constitution/lvl (temp recovers slowly or can be fixed via channeling spells) and 1 pt potential const. pt/10 lvls. So imbedding a 20th lvl spell into a ring with constant effect is 20 temp con. And 1 potential co. pt. Ouch. Over time an Enchanter is going to be stingy about what he creates. A major item will take a big bite out of him—as it should. Of course maybe he can find a way to drain someone else’s constitution….

I’m still tinkering with my alchemy/enchanter spells but they seem to make sense. One spell list that is getting a lot of use in gameplay is “Simple Imbedding”. Basically it imbeds lower lvl spells into items for one time use that consumes the object: a potion you drink, powder that you throw, candle you burn, charm that you break etc. The better quality the object the better chance of imbedding it. It’s quick process—a caster can create a simple imbed easily if the object survives.

[jdale]

1. RMU provides more than ample PP at least at low levels. I think items that require PP are a good solution, that give the characters some extra versatility and also help drain off those excess PPs. I'm actually doing this already.

The only limitation is items for non-casters. But if the item can hold a certain amount of power, you could have another party member charge it for you. You could also give it other means of recharging. E.g. exposure to a Node, or a fire-based item might be rechargeable by putting it in the campfire -- depending on the power level, this could be quest-level or merely things that require some downtime to limit overuse. Could also be roleplaying, e.g. item only recharges when exposed to laughter and music in a tavern, item only recharges at night in a graveyard when placed on a fresh grave, etc. Lots of opportunities there.

2. Two of the characters in my game have a list like the Power Mastery list from Arcane Companion, which lets you store up to a certain number of PP in an item. Sort of like an adder you charge yourself. (Only one per character of course.) It's beneficial because you can fill them on rainy days but the power comes from somewhere. I will probably just stick with this concept rather than having adders and multipliers at all. They can also recharge items (as above), and drain power out of items, which provides extra flexibility -- possibly too much, but we'll see.

3. I'm hesitant about making the investment by the alchemist too high, because it just makes the character less playable (and alchemists already seem borderline in that regard), while doing nothing about items made by NPCs. But it could work in principle.

(With regard to keeping alchemists playable, I think another aspect is to not let it be a profession, split the lists up and let people get access to them on the side somehow. But you've already said you deal with that differently.)

With regard to your simple embedding, never underestimate the power of the PCs to stockpile vast numbers of single use items in their downtime. At some point it becomes more powerful than a daily item....

[markc]

 IIRC quite a few magic items in RM are supposed to have intelligence as a requirement for casting spells. That intelligence could be the part that gathers the surrounding power to cast spells and create effects.
MDC 

[B Hanson]

IIRC quite a few magic items in RM are supposed to have intelligence as a requirement for casting spells. That intelligence could be the part that gathers the surrounding power to cast spells and create effects.
MDC 

Yes, if a magic item is intelligent than that would fulfill the "Will" component and the item could cast on it's own. I don't use much, if any, intelligent magic items. In SW these items are generally high tech AI, though that's lost on the players or it's a distinction without a difference.

[B Hanson]

With regard to your simple embedding, never underestimate the power of the PCs to stockpile vast numbers of single use items in their downtime. At some point it becomes more powerful than a daily item....

Chargeable items are also used along with the unpowered Daily X items. I actually allow players to charge items and PP crystals using the Channeling skill. It's about the only use we've ever had for it in 35 years.

Our simple Imbedded items require a suitable "substrate" (made using alchemical skill). Basically the object (candle, liquid, powder, charm) has to make a RR/Breakage roll for success. Success is is dependent on lvl of the spell to be imbedded and lvl of substrate. Better quality substrates cost more--but increase the chance of success. Failure by more than 25 the substrate is ruined. Cost can really add up, so it keeps the # of simple imbeds down and also acts as a money sink for the game. (I like to keep by PC's poor and hungry).

[Cory Magel]

Regarding "low level" constant magic items: This is a GM/group specific topic to an extent.  "Low Magic" and "High Magic" and so on mean different things to different GM's/groups.  For me, low level bonus items, such as anywhere from a +5 to +15 item, is typically based on materials and those materials properties and/or the skill of the crafter.  +5 items could simply be the UM100 rolls of the creator.  "Magic" items, for me, start at +20 and up and this includes the possibility of a +15 material being given a +5 magical bonus (and it would be uncommon for someone to take a crappily made item and give it a +5 magic bonus - although I can think of reasons why something like this might happen).  This eliminates that dilemma of, what most people consider lower level "magic" items requiring "powerful" magic.  It also explains the permanence of a "low" powered "magic" item... that is, it's not magic, it's just its inherent properties.  RM has done things like this in the past.  I have a list of materials from various RM books that I used to create the baseline material bonuses/properties in my little world.  I think this might be a candidate for future theories in RMU.

I don't have a problem with the idea of Daily (or similar in function but different time intervals) items.  It's easily explained as the object absorbing power in whatever fashion you want.  Again, this is more of a individual GM/Setting theory, so I think trying to give a specific hard and fast explanation is not needed.  Examples could be provided on how they might accomplish it, but I think saying "This is how it works! Officially!" is a mistake.  Spell Adders could easily be treated in the same manner as Daily items, but instead of a specific spell, it's a certain amount of power.  Power multipliers could easily be explained as either gathering up more power when you pass power through it (maybe it does it more efficiently), or as a focusing the power you put into it better than you can.  Again, a GM/group specific explanation is entirely possible, so I wouldn't try to pigeonhole it.  Although, I do like the idea (and we have already used for many years) of power being stored by the caster (or other sources) into or charging items for future use.  I call those "Charged" items.

I can completely see Mentalism based magic items, however my personal explanation of them would hinge on something or someones 'will' or soul being imbued into the item/weapon somehow.  A katana with the soul of a legendary samurai in it.  A helm with the soul of a great knight in it.  Think along those lines.  Maybe they were willingly placed there, maybe not.  Maybe they can only communicate with you, maybe the samurai will guide your hand (OB bonus), or maybe they'll try to take control of you (this is where the idea of Will Contests in the Channeling Companion come from).  Maybe a weapon that was used to slaughter insane numbers of a certain people or creature has absorbed their mental power and is haunted (cursed?) as a result.  Would they be commonplace?  Not at all.  But I can come up with various theories on how they may have been created... and some of those could involve preconceived intent.

Channeling items can be explained in many ways.  Items could be spontaneously created due to a certain event.  Items that are created with the specific permission from or instruction by a 'religious' power.  I think the only caveat on Alchemist created Channeling items compared to Essence items is that one... there needs to be some kind of specific religious driving force behind the creation.  The power needs to, literally, be channeled into the item.  How that is accomplished is, again, a GM/group specific topic.  Maybe a million people praying during an items creation causes it to be their religions head Paladins holy weapon.  Maybe a Druid and an Alchemist created a Staff and the forest itself provided power.

The explanation is secondary and, often, gamer specific.  It's the systems job to balance it, not always explain it.  I say it all the freaking time... Fun > Balance > Realism.

[Cory Magel]

You know, in thinking about this kind of discussion, I think something should probably be clarified about the background intent...

Does the system (any system) assume a specific setting or underlying creative theory?  If it does, then explain away all the specific details up front, as they are setting based.  If it does not assume a specific setting, then getting too deeply into the "why" of certain things is a waste of time.  Make sure it works well, then explain why it works that way in theory in the setting or leave it up to the user.

[markc]

 One thing I did do was create a new material bonus system that was based on material+quality+magic bonus that was not base 5, that IMO worked very well and resulted in lower bonuses over all.
MDC

[Spectre771]

1.   Normal spell casting rules don’t apply well to creating magic items.
2.   “Alchemy” spells aren’t really Essence realm.
3.   Depending on your setting and views, channeling magic items should really be keyed to, and only used by followers of the particular Diety.
4.   To me, based on how it works, it doesn’t make sense that mentalism spells can be imbedded into items.
5.   Many RM magic items are “perpetual motion” machines. A finite investment of spellcasting can produce a magic item that will then generate magical effects in PERPETUITY.

Hello and thank you for your thought out Sacred Cows.  I appreciate that you took the time to qualify your statements rather than just throwing out a gripe but not offering any suggestions.  And finally, someone who writes longer posts than I do!   

I read your first Sacred Cow post and I am still on the fence about what you offer even though several people have offered good supporting arguments for it.  I am going to go back to read through it again before I post anything to that thread.

There are a few points in this thread though, that I'd like to offer a counterpoint to thus far.

1) Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Thank the gods for the Alchemy Companion.  I love that book and the cover art work!

2)  I can agree with this as well.  Items can be imbued by a deity, or through a medium like a high level priest or an archangel thus making them "of Channeling."  Essence items, obviously made from the essence of an item.

3)   I do like this idea of only followers of a certain deity or religion able to use that item.  It would be akin to a Roman Catholic trying to read the Torah in Latin for his own use.  It doesn't really work.  In my own world setting though, there are countless deities, as anyone can believe in whomever or whatever god they want, create a simple shrine or a full blown religion for that deity.  (Read Small Gods - Terry Pratchett for a great example of why I chose this mechanic for my world.)   The god of blacksmiths, the god of fire, the god of baked goods, the god of animal husbandry... to those ends, I think I may adopt the practice of only Channelers can attune themselves to an "of Channeling" item to use it.  If they happen to follow that deity, then I'll give them a +# bonus to attunement skill.

4)  I think Mentalism can absolutely be used for imbuing Mentalist items/spells.  That magical effect is being produced then sent to a temporary "holding area" or stasis until it is finally released.  We do have batteries that store electricity in a safe medium until we need to call upon the magical powers of electricity.  The "of Mentalism" item would simply be A) a battery that holds the spell until it's ready to be released, or B) Just suspended in stasis until the spell is finally released... similar to holding a drawn bow or a spell caster holding a Directed Spell prior to releasing it.

5)  I didn't have too much of a problem with this as a player or a GM.  Most of the spell items we ever encountered were low level spells anyway, so much so that they could be almost considered cantrips... almost.  I did prefer the "x# of uses" items or items that needed to be recharged over the ones that worked forever, but in my experience, those lower level items were hardly used at higher player levels.  As the players leveled up, those items did not... and again, they were usually low level spells trapped in low level items.  To me, in my own mind, that makes sense. 

As for magical bonuses on weapons, etc, I don't see an issue with a static +5, +10, +## lasting forever as it is a static bonus that can be considered part of the material, part of the properties, part of crafting, part of the mere nature of "magic" being "magical".  As long as that sword doesn't change then the effect should still be present.  i.e.: it gets hammered into a club, it gets melted down and poured into arrowhead molds.

If the player makes a good argument for a magical sword broken into two pieces, I would seriously consider letting a good smith turn it into +5 short sword and a +5 dagger.  The concept of the sword (cutting, slashing, stabbing) is still there.  Or the "tip" is broken off and is no longer magical, but the part with the hilt can be used as a +5 Short Sword a la Lord of the Rings. 

Heck, we have magical swords that have no +# at all, they are simply magical and do magical damage those creatures susceptible to magic.  If it were a sword that released an A-Heat crit on contact... hmmm... OK.  The idea of needing to recharge the item or having a finite amount of charges works.  We worked around that by saying "Once per day, your attack releases an additional A-Heat crit."  That gives it a finite amount and *IF* the players wanted to know WHY it only works once per day, they could go on a quest to find the crafter to ask him/her why that is so.  I can think of any number of reasonable explanations to give my players if they ever decided to find the crafter.

[markc]

 The RM2 Elemental Comp has lots of rules for equipment forged in/on elemental forges. The same goes for the RMSS/FRP Elemental Comp.
  Both of those rules can dramatically alter the magic item rule creation system in your games.



MDC