Author Topic: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?  (Read 1277 times)

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Offline Voriig Kye

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Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« on: April 20, 2013, 07:30:21 AM »
The spell description states "all attacks have no effect 10% of the time (no normal RRs)".
Now, in a combat, a Force Spell can be considered as much an attack as a fire bolt or a sword swing. I am tempted to rule that even a cleric's stunning spell or a vibration would have to roll to home in the target.
As regards mentalism, The only way I think it may be avoid this ruling is if a Mentalist where to cast Presence and then target the detected presence instead of using his sight.
Any thoughts?

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 08:07:39 AM »
I would extend the "alternate sensing" idea to everything non-visual. Whether you're placing the target by smell, sound, Finding spell, whatever... if you're not using vision, Displacement doesn't affect your chances one way or another, as it's a purely light-based effect.

Now whether locating someone by sound (for example) who is Displaced gives a better, worse or equal mod than locating someone by sound who is Invisible is another question entirely.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 02:37:46 PM »
I'm not convinced that it is vision-only. It appears in the Guises list for Illusionists, after all, not Light Molding. "Appears" has both a vision-specific usage and more general uses. There's also no reference to RRs in the copies I have to hand, which is that from?
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Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 05:09:20 PM »
The quote is from "Of Essence", Mystic Base: Hiding at level 8.
Besides the use of senses other than sight, what do you think about using Force spells against someone with displacement? Would a Force spell count as an attack and have a chance to miss as specified by the spell?

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 09:47:18 PM »
Okay, knowing where to look, I can see it was added to the versions in Cloaking and Hiding in the RMSS Spell Law. However, it also gives Displacement a type "F" for the Cloaking version, which would explain the "no RRs" bit. It doesn't explain why it wasn't just made type "E" like the other versions, so that the issue wouldn't arise. It's "E" for the Mystic's version in RMSS. Could you check the types for RMFRP, since you have that version and I do not? I suspect someone made the Cloaking version F (copying RM2), then realized that allowed RRs, so added that text. Then it got copied to the Mystic (which just referred to the Cloaking list in RM2), but someone corrected the spell type to match the Illusionist version and missed Cloaking and the added text. So, I don't think that the "no RRs" can be taken to match any intent to include base attack spells.

Unfortunately, I don't believe "attack" is a defined term in any version of RM, although if someone can find an official definition, that would help interpret intent.

Frankly, I don't think it works well to include spells that don't use an OB, because they don't "hit" or "miss". They either are resisted or they work. If Displacement affects them, it seems arbitrary that friendly spells (say a Blur) would not also have a chance to miss. There are also cases such as a Calm spell, which is not an attack in any conventional sense, but is a resistable spell that one generally does not want to be affected by.

If anyone has extensive experience using this spell in interaction with base attack spells, I would be interested in your experiences. I do think this could use clarification for RMU, and I would like to hear any relevant experiences to help decide how to do so.
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Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 10:45:13 PM »
Cloaking (open mentalism): type F, includes "no RR" text
Misdirections (magent base): type U, includes "no RR" text
Hiding (mystic base): type E, includes "no RR" text
Guises (illusionist base): type E, does not include the text
Concealment Mastery (dabbler base): type E, does not include the text

Offline Ynglaur

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Re: Does Displacement affect Basic Spell Attacks?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 11:49:08 AM »
Seems like the Mentalism-based versions have "no RR", but the Essence based versions do.