Topic: RM Fantasy Weapons question

[HighNDry]

Purchased the Rolemaster Fantasy Weapons pdf from DriveThru since any additional weapon charts for RM2 is a good thing. One of my players picked the Chakram from it to use.

Now after looking closely at the Chakram and the Chegain boomerang I'm stumped.
The Chakram does a lot less damage & crits. Being lighter I guess that makes sense, but it also has much worse range modifiers at longer distances than the heavier boomerang.

Can anyone explain that to me? It's worse in every way. Is there any advantage that would make a player want to choose it? Shouldn't the lighter thrown weapon at least aim better at longer ranges?

[PhillipAEllis]

I could invoke a real world response here, by noting that the average boomerang is very aerodynamic, even the hunting boomerangs. This type is a variation on the throwing stick, designed not to return but to maximise the damage that it causes at a distance.

So: the boomerang could be read as being more aerodynamically stable, and designed with longer distances in mind. The lighter chakram, in turn, may be affected more by wind resistance, being of less mass in ratio to surface area than the boomerang. As a result, it would be more affected by resistance over longer distances.

[HighNDry]

Interesting. Having never thrown either I hadn't thought of that.
Makes sense to me. I can see the Chakram not being very good in real life.
Really appreciate your taking the time to explain that. Other than TV's Xena, I've never even seen one.
I'm guessing the small fluff text on them is from Shadow World?
Anyone know if that's true? And if there's anything interesting about either that isn't apparent in a chart.

[Nortti]

Chakram seems like a shorter range thrown weapon. I believe these can be thrown quickly. They have been stacked on some stick etc and a new one can be quickly thrown. I would referee that you can throw 2 in a round. It also seems to be easy to use. Learning to throw should be simple compared to a boomerang. Makes me think of crossbow vs composite bow. 

[Merkir]

I made the mistake of letting a player use Kynacs (fantasy great throwing daggers - RMC AL p.23) after he saw them used in the Grand Campaign pre-made PCs.

Here's how the kynac compares to a thrown dagger:
- Kynac has a 150' range compared to 50' for dagger.
- At 0-50' kynac has no penalty, dagger has penalties at all ranges.
- Kynac uses the RAPIER table, with no penalty up to AT 12 (-5 for AT > 12)!
- How brutal is the rapier table compared to dagger? It's about a +20 shift.

I'm all for fantasy weapons, but this fantastic?... really??? Even the player agreed we had to house rule something more realistic.

Also, the player will use the "Long Kynac" in melee (he's only used thrown kynacs so far - 1st level). The Long Kynac uses the rapier table at +15 for all AT's!  This means crits start on modified rolls of 50. Ouch!

[VladD]

The chakram is an Indian weapon. Shikhs still use them. They are worn like a bracelet when the wielder is going to use them. The edges are reputed to be razor sharp. They are spun on a finger and then released. They are said to be accurate and used against lightly armored opponents, to whom the razor edges possibly do a lot of damage. Any hit on any armor is probably not going to penetrate, ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=sDNw2slOK3Y&feature=endscreen

Seems the designer had the ranges wrong for the chakram... simple to adjust, I think.

[markc]

merkir,
 The two weapons you talk about (IIRC) require a special race and background to play to use the weapons effectively. This may have a big impact on your SW game and the players PC.
 Your comment is a common one that I have seen quite a bit of and the solutions to the problem range all over the spectrum. Such as  disallowing the weapon to it ok with taking specific skills and background to o'well I guess I will let the player get away with one this time.
 You might do a search on the SW archives to see what other people have done in the past as well as open a topic there for some more in depth advice.
MDC

[jdale]

Also, the player will use the "Long Kynac" in melee (he's only used thrown kynacs so far - 1st level). The Long Kynac uses the rapier table at +15 for all AT's!  This means crits start on modified rolls of 50. Ouch!

I would say if it is functionally a +15 rapier, then it should have the production time, cost, and availability of a +15 rapier. And if you want a +5 Long Kynac, it will have the production time, cost, and availability of a +20 rapier.

You can't get that kind of bonus simply through a better weapon design. It requires superior production and metallurgy, just like a +15 rapier.

[Nortti]

I have never used those fantasy weapons like Kynac or its long version. They have seemed completely unbalanced to me. One way to balance those would be to make them magical weapons.

Agree that a chakram would probably never penetrate any kind of armor. Due to its shape I think it would easily cause injuries to unarmored targets. However it seems that it would not easily make very deep wounds. Maybe there should be a bonus (like +10/+15) to hitting low AT's and a limit to max critical (max C or D). 

[Merkir]

merkir,
 The two weapons you talk about (IIRC) require a special race and background to play to use the weapons effectively. This may have a big impact on your SW game and the players PC.
 Your comment is a common one that I have seen quite a bit of and the solutions to the problem range all over the spectrum. Such as  disallowing the weapon to it ok with taking specific skills and background to o'well I guess I will let the player get away with one this time.
 You might do a search on the SW archives to see what other people have done in the past as well as open a topic there for some more in depth advice.
MDC

Understood, but when a GM is overseeing 5 players creating their PC's, handling literally a dozen simultaneous issues/questions from players as they go through the process, the last thing you would expect is for the GM to say, "no you can't have that wepon until I check it's balanced".  How would the GM even know it's unbalanced? Is the GM expected to look up the stats for every weapon as the player chooses it?

In short, GMs (and Players) should be forgiven for expecting that core rulebook weapons are at least somewhat balanced. Surely we're not expected to assume every rule or item is unbalanced until we personally vet it?

Also fyi, this player came to the character creation session wanting to be a Duranaki (and yes, this is precisely the race he must be to use kynacs) and with a two page detailed background, goals, personality, character portrait - the lot. Pretty sad when the player puts in so many hours of effort only to have the GM say, "no you can't have that weapon".

I'm just fortunate that even the player himself agreed that the weapon is ridiculously unbalanced, and we've house-ruled something more appropriate.

For those that are interested, I kept the range at 150' but increased the penalties. Throwing a "rapier" 150' is quite a feat, but one I wanted to allow for late game "flavour".

Constructively, I hope nothing like this gets into RMU. By all means make fantasy weapons more powerful, but not this powerful. Please allow GMs to assume that rules and items from the core rulebook are at least somewhat balanced.

[Merkir]

Also, the player will use the "Long Kynac" in melee (he's only used thrown kynacs so far - 1st level). The Long Kynac uses the rapier table at +15 for all AT's!  This means crits start on modified rolls of 50. Ouch!

I would say if it is functionally a +15 rapier, then it should have the production time, cost, and availability of a +15 rapier. And if you want a +5 Long Kynac, it will have the production time, cost, and availability of a +20 rapier.

Sounds quite reasonable to me, but I point out that the section on Outfitting in RMC ChL p.28 states "Your character will begin the game with two normal weapons of your choice." Now if a player has developed skill ranks in kynacs (only), it would be difficult as a GM to say, "Sorry Gruddd, I know you trained in throwing kynacs and long kynac, but unfortunately you're equipped only with a throwing dagger and broadsword instead."

[Merkir]

I have never used those fantasy weapons like Kynac or its long version. They have seemed completely unbalanced to me. One way to balance those would be to make them magical weapons.

On that topic, the amusing thing that I haven't mentioned up until now is that we used the optional Background Option rules and the Duranaki character was lucky enough to roll two +10 non-magical weapons, so he currently has two +10 (high steel) throwing kynacs.

To end on a positive note, the players and myself loved the RMC background options for the added flavour, so we hope RMU has similar or better options.

[vroomfogle]

merkir, you won't see unbalanced weapons like that in RMU, and when Shadow World is done up with RMU rules I can virtually guarantee that you won't see anything like kynacs, irgaaks, or ge's.   

I've been thinking about the Kynacs myself, since my group is currently playing on Jaiman.   One approach I've been considering is to first have Kynac's have some moderate penalties for someone not specifically trained in their use (their balance is all wrong).   Training would be a talent (available to Thavan only) that would grant a +10 bonus to Multiple Attacks when using the Long/Short Kynac combo.

As far as the attack tables themselves, I would use probably use Dagger (short kynac) and Rapier (long kynac) as is.  If I were to make tables I might boost the short kynac from the dagger table. However, Kynac's are such unusual weapons that you would never find a +0 Kynac.    Kynac's are always master-crafted, if not magical, and as such would be +10 minimum.

[jdale]

I don't know Shadow World, but I would think you could deal with them as cultural examples of existing weapon types. E.g. the master smiths among the Duranaki craft an exceptional fencing weapon, the Long Kynac, which is a form of rapier made with high steel using a secret folding process that requires many days of focused effort. These weapons are treated as +15 rapiers for purposes of cost, production time, and attacks, and are used with the Rapier skill, although characters trained in Rapier who have never used the Long Kynac will suffer a -10 unfamiliarity penalty until they have trained with it for a month.

That keeps the name and the color without being a balance issue.

[Merkir]

merkir, you won't see unbalanced weapons like that in RMU, and when Shadow World is done up with RMU rules I can virtually guarantee that you won't see anything like kynacs, irgaaks, or ge's.   

I assumed that would be the case, but good to have the feedback. Thanks.

[markc]

From Matt Hanson



merkir, you won't see unbalanced weapons like that in RMU, and when Shadow World is done up with RMU rules I can virtually guarantee that you won't see anything like kynacs, irgaaks, or ge's.   

I've been thinking about the Kynacs myself, since my group is currently playing on Jaiman.   One approach I've been considering is to first have Kynac's have some moderate penalties for someone not specifically trained in their use (their balance is all wrong).   Training would be a talent (available to Thavan only) that would grant a +10 bonus to Multiple Attacks when using the Long/Short Kynac combo.

As far as the attack tables themselves, I would use probably use Dagger (short kynac) and Rapier (long kynac) as is.  If I were to make tables I might boost the short kynac from the dagger table. However, Kynac's are such unusual weapons that you would never find a +0 Kynac.    Kynac's are always master-crafted, if not magical, and as such would be +10 minimum.


From what I remember on Shadow World I think that there is a rule that you have to be trained for some time with the weapons if not you get a -30 to there use (But that is from memory).
Also IIRC it was also noted that the weapons were made of superior material and a special technique to produce them.
Both of the above notes should have made it into then rules, IMHO.
Merkir, I agree that the GM has a lot to know in the game and it is a shame that the above notes did not make it into the rules with a big note on their use and possible ability to unbalance the game.
Note there is another weapon the Elvish Longsword that has the same possibility of unbalancing the game. I do not remember if that weapon made it into RMC as that is not a rule set I use, I use RMSS.
MDC

[vroomfogle]

markc, you are correct.  Those special weapons in SW, at least the irgaak and kynacs do specify that they are made of superior material and specially crafted.   However those rules need to be underscored as you suggest.   If a weapon requires very special crafting and material then having a unique superior attack table would be fine (or a bonus on an existing table), but without a big note stating the crafting requirements I think a lot of people ended up using them as if they were normally available weapons.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

markc, you are correct.  Those special weapons in SW, at least the irgaak and kynacs do specify that they are made of superior material and specially crafted.   However those rules need to be underscored as you suggest.   If a weapon requires very special crafting and material then having a unique superior attack table would be fine (or a bonus on an existing table), but without a big note stating the crafting requirements I think a lot of people ended up using them as if they were normally available weapons.

The easy way is merely to increase theirs prices, comparatively to the weapons with which they're similar... I think most people do understand and expect a "rapier-like" weapon they pay, say, ten times more than a normal rapier to be a bit better... The RM2 weapon price chart also had a "production time" column, so increasing that would also be more than enough. RL marketing consideration would make that, an item that is long to produce, is very expensive, and is merely an amelioration of an existing item, is an item that a merchant would expect to sell little, thus would rarely stock --and if he does, only in tiny quantity-- making the availability of the item low, etc. If you realistically play with weapon wear and all, the natural consequence for using such a rare weapon is merely its high maintenance cost...

[markc]

 I do not remember but does not the area they are produced in SW have a higher Tech Level than others? If this is so then the price might be right as well as reduced costs for other standard weapons.
MDC

[NuSoardGraphite]

My suggestion for those who have balance issues with the Kynac using the Rapier attack table is to change the (standard) Kynac to attack as a +10 or +15 Dagger.

However, I agree that the Kynac (and it's larger brother) is a special weapon, forged utilizing materials of extraordinary qualities and with a special process that makes the final result a superior weapon.  They should be rare and expensive.