Topic: Need Magic to hit

[mtpnj]

Can a normal creature say a bear do damage to a creature like a werewolf where you need magic to hit a creature?  If so is it a level thing like above 5th level to hit a creature that needs + 5 magic and 10th level to hit a creature that you need + 10 etc.  What about monk attacks if just using fists.  Are they ever able to hit creatures that need magic without magic?

I assume a werewolf attacking a werewolf would be ok as I would consider it a magical creature.

Any thoughts?  Thanks

[PhillipAEllis]

They way I'd say it would work is that the bear's claws would "damage" the magic creature, but that the wounds caused would instantly heal, and not be felt. Eg. a peasant with a spear impales said werewolf, but because the said spear isn't magic, the werewolf doesn't feel a thing.

Same thing with MA attacks: there'd be bruises, but these fade instantly and are not felt.

[Nortti]

Again, there are many ways to handle this. My view of this is that the bear can damage the werewolf but its chances are not good. The damage heals quickly. It is still possible for the bear to damage the werewolf so that it has to spend time regenarating. This can give enough time for the bear to escape.

[yammahoper]

If normal animals can hurt lycanthropes, I think game theory needs to match up with it.

If the animal is able to damage the beat via the spirit of the wood, we have presidence (since the same spirit powers Druids, Animist, Rangers, etc).  How ever, as with the use of all power, danger is involved, and this time the danger is very personal and known at a deep instinctive level.

I prefer simplicity.  So, all animal attacks against lychanthropes will be 1/2 hits and Crit II.  A crits will resolve at -40, B cits at -20.

The animal must make an rr against corruption.  The attack is the level of the were, target resist at own level.  Target recieves no bonuses to roll but suffers a -15 to rr per level of critical severity delivered ( A is -15, B is -30, etc).  Number of points are doubled if were is bleeding (unless GM declares blood fails to enter mouth/beak/etc)  Amount roll is failed by is ammount of corruption points recieved.

If a PC uses a spell to summon or enhance the animal, then it suffers no penalties to damage and will recieve a bonus to all RR's equal to Tpre x5.  (So, a Summons III wpuld provide +15 to all rr's for the summoned animal, of course).

Ugh...ended a sentence with a prepositional phrase 

[yammahoper]

If normal animals can hurt lycanthropes, I think game theory needs to match up with it.

If the animal is able to damage the beat via the spirit of the wood, we have prescedence (since the same spirit powers Druids, Animist, Rangers, etc).  How ever, as with the use of all power, danger is involved, and this time the danger is very personal and known at a deep instinctive level.

I prefer simplicity.  So, all animal attacks against lychanthropes will be 1/2 hits and Crit II.  A crits will resolve at -40, B cits at -20.

The animal must make an rr against corruption.  The attack is the level of the were, target resist at own level.  Target recieves no bonuses to roll but suffers a -15 to rr per level of critical severity delivered ( A is -15, B is -30, etc).  Number of points are doubled if were is bleeding (unless GM declares blood fails to enter mouth/beak/etc)  Amount roll is failed by is ammount of corruption points recieved.

If a PC uses a spell to summon or enhance the animal, then it suffers no penalties to damage and will recieve a bonus to all RR's equal to Tpre x5.  (So, a Summons III wpuld provide +15 to all rr's for the summoned animal, of course).

Ugh...ended a sentence with a prepositional phrase 

See a spelling error, just suffer it, that is the morale of this post.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Can a normal creature say a bear do damage to a creature like a werewolf where you need magic to hit a creature?

I'd personally say "no, it cannot". I mean, what would be the point of "you need magic to hit it" if a normal creature can hit it anyway?

[Nortti]

I think there are different interpretations here. If we simply say "need magic to hit" then thats exactly what it means. You cannot hit, damage or harm that creature with a non-magic weapon. If that creature falls to a non-magic meatgrinder or is hit by a non-magical 1000 kg high-explosive bomb or a, lets say 10 megaton nuclear bomb it will be unscathed. You drop that creature to the sun and instead of vaporizing instantly it will swim there as long as it naturally lives. Does it even suffer there? Why would it suffer if it doesnt get damage? Is sun magical? If sun is magical then how about that nuke?

In my game I like to think that a werecreatures flesh can be bitten and its skin can be punctured with a regular spear or sword. The eyes of a werecreature are not made of titanium either. Still, a werewolf is tremendously difficult for a bear or a spearman to hit, but the possibility is there. However, the damage can be quickly regenerated by the monster so the bear or that spearman should thank its/his lucky stars and get away from the scene asap.   

[yammahoper]

Regeneration is the key.  My weres regen rules work by reducing any wound sustained not caused by magic/silver to be reduced one severity every round.  So a medium wound becomes light, then it is gone.  I use light, medium, severe and instant death.  I have prevented regeneration until a weapon was dislodged, but that was a specific case and really was used to enhance drama that session.

[MariusH]

I'm with OLF on this one. "Need magic to hit" should mean just that - not "Can be hit by any weapon, although magic is more effective".

[markc]

 IMHO, need magic to hit means just that, you need a magic weapon to hit and do damage to the creature. But I also like it when the creature has some other options to damage it. Such as is real common with the D&D creatures such as all of the Were-creatures that have need magic to hit (damage) or a silver to hit (damage). That way there is a way for another material to damage the creature.
MDC

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Such as is real common with the D&D creatures such as all of the Were-creatures that have need magic to hit (damage) or a silver to hit (damage). That way there is a way for another material to damage the creature.

D&D (3.x, at least) doesn't have immunity to hits, though, but DR (Damage Reduction), whose RM equivalent would be the Crit size. If that were the case, the werebeings would be marked with something such as "M/- versus magical or silver weapons and M/SL# otherwise". Which isn't the case (it is written "unharmed by non-magic, non-silver weapons" which means exactly that, unharmed), though it may be food for thought for RMU. As always, IDOYW of course, but I'd maintain that the RAW says that, no, a normal creature such as a bear cannot do damage to a creature like a werewolf.

[markc]

From OLF
"[size=78%]D&D (3.x, at least) doesn't have immunity to hits, though, but DR (Damage Reduction), whose RM equivalent would be the Crit size. If that were the case, the werebeings would be marked with something such as "M/- versus magical or silver weapons and M/SL# otherwise". Which isn't the case (it is written "unharmed by non-magic, non-silver weapons" which means exactly that, unharmed), though it may be food for thought for RMU. As always, IDOYW of course, but I'd maintain that the RAW says that, no, a normal creature such as a bear cannot do damage to a [/size]
[/size][size=78%]creature like a werewolf."[/size]
[/size][size=78%] Sorry my Quote button on [/size][size=78%][/size]Chrome[size=78%][/size][size=78%] is not working so I just did a copy and past. [/size][size=78%]
[/size][size=78%] If you look at the [/size]beginning[size=78%] on my post I said exactly that "creatures are unharmed by weapons unless they are magic" But after that I also said that I do like the D&D style. [/size][size=78%]
[/size][size=78%] I guess I should have noted that in my game I use both styles depending on the creature and game world I am playing in. [/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%] So yes in core RM when it says you need a magic weapon to hit yes you need a magic weapon to hit. [/size][size=78%]
[/size][size=78%]MDC[/size][size=78%]

[yammahoper]

I say never allow RM's amazing lack of detail limit your creative GM emergies.  Fun is the goal.  Consistency over dogma will win every time.

[arakish]

Interesting thread.

However, I have always read "need magic to hit" as "need magic to damage".

I always allow a person to hit, just that they won't cause any damage except perhaps some unbalancing or impact which would amount to nothing more than stumbling or knocking back some.

Reiteration: I have always ruled that even non-magical weapons still hit, just no damage.

rmfr

[Nortti]

I often change rules to my liking and have done it here. If the rule is "need magic to hit" then that's what that rule means. You just cant hit that darn werewolf. Even if it would be standing in front of your tank and you had a 120mm APFSDS round aimed to its chest. The projectile made to penetrate the heaviest MBTs cannot pierce in to the skin of that creature. That btw does not make much sense to me. Or, in another thread of large and huge attacks there was talk of a titan trying to step on a human. If that 300 feet tall 75 lvl titan would step on that werewolf and have a OB of 600 or so the werewolf would just keep running after having been stomped. I find that ridiculous. I like the approach of the folklore and legends according to which werewolves are vulnerable to silver weapons and are highly resistant to damage. Mythologies tell plethora of ways to destroy a werewolf, often depending on specifics of that creature. 

[yammahoper]

Magic is a generic term.  Magic can assume many, many forms.  Silver, wolvesbane, elemental attacks are just the most obvious.

If magic permeates a world, then magic is to be had, it is just a matter of proper focusing it to achieve the desired result.

[Nortti]

I agree Yamma. Adventurer group probably has a good selection of magicks to use vs a werewolf.

In my games this actually is a non-issue as PCs have usually magic-weapons before they encounter any werecreatures.

But, if the situation would arise I would divide the damage of normal weapons by three, and the werecreature can regenerate even serious damage in a matter of minutes. If it would get serious damage from a very lucky strike it could easily leave from the situation and go somewhere to regen. Only damage from magic weapons, magic spells or effects or magical creatures like vampires cause so-called aggravated damage that can kill or seriously harm werewolves.  This is how it works in Werewolf RPG and this is how I handle it in my RM game.

[wilcoxon]

As written, I would say that a non-magic weapon can not hit or damage such a creature.

However, I think this seems really stupid and would argue in any game where I played that it makes no sense.  If I was running it, I'd probably say something like "attacker without magic can hit and damage normally but the magic creature regenerates hits and crits much faster if not damaged by magic (something like 30 hits/round and crit reduced 1 level/round)".

[providence13]

Regeneration is the key.  My weres regen rules work by reducing any wound sustained not caused by magic/silver to be reduced one severity every round.  So a medium wound becomes light, then it is gone.  I use light, medium, severe and instant death.  I have prevented regeneration until a weapon was dislodged, but that was a specific case and really was used to enhance drama that session.

I like this one. Even if a low level party is facing a demon, they can still push it off a cliff with a wagon. If you drop a multi-ton tree on a werewolf, it still takes time to dig itself out; then, it's fully healed. This is when the party should run away. Physics still apply in my games, but magic can change/alter/trump the results.

[RandalThor]

As written, I would say that a non-magic weapon can not hit or damage such a creature.

However, I think this seems really stupid and would argue in any game where I played that it makes no sense.  If I was running it, I'd probably say something like "attacker without magic can hit and damage normally but the magic creature regenerates hits and crits much faster if not damaged by magic (something like 30 hits/round and crit reduced 1 level/round)".

That's pretty-much how I handle it - for corporeal creatures, incorporeal just aren't affected by weapons that are not magical (or silver, or whatever).