Author Topic: The Crusades  (Read 3448 times)

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Offline peacekeeper_b

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The Crusades
« on: January 30, 2013, 11:22:33 AM »
Just picked up Deus Vult from Fireforge game, was thinking of doing some sort of Fantasy Crusader setting.

What would be good books from RM to pick up to support this? Which companions and monster books and adventures?

I have lots of Crusades history texts and the old AD&D 2E Crusades Campaign Book already.

Offline markc

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 11:47:53 AM »
  What version of RM are you thinking about using? But I can say no matter what version I would pick up Castles and Ruins as IMO it is a great source for build and maintaining castles.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 02:06:47 PM »
Big +1 for Castle and Ruins.  Perfect for establishing proper economy and use of castles in the era.  Seige battles are covered too.  The TP's are rich.

Is there magic?  Chaneling Companion would help set up various religious orders, providing strong flavor and variation for Paladins of any faith.  The Devine Staus rules alone would be useful too.

RM2's War Law rally shines with small unit battles (it is a bit cumbersome for massive scale battles).  Any unit of 500 or less works nicely, though the system really shines at the 20-100 numbers.



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Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 03:09:47 PM »
Yeah, I am leaning toward RE Howard and HP Lovecraft style magic with some minor monsters/demons in the setting. It wouldnt be set in Jerusalem or the Lavent (Outremer) but in a fantasy setting similar. A fantasy world that has a Crusade style event happen.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 07:55:07 PM »
Have you read Glen Cook's Instrumentalities of the Night?  It is essentially the second crusade with magic and some name changes.  You have the Templars, a pope, the anti-pope, Muslim invasion, barbarians, etc.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Old Man

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 08:24:00 PM »
Have you read Glen Cook's Instrumentalities of the Night?  It is essentially the second crusade with magic and some name changes.  You have the Templars, a pope, the anti-pope, Muslim invasion, barbarians, etc.

I second this suggestion. On that vein, Cook's Dread Empire series has numerous epic campaigns (along with some epic characters as well... ).

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Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 08:04:48 AM »
So I am going with a pseudo Christian faith based Crusade. The religion is of a single prime deity (though there are lesser spirits/saints/angels and such that are essentially demi gods) called Jove. He is a sun-life-law god of sorts.

A part of the faith is a very strong anti-magic (as in sorcery/magician style stuff, essence and mentalism not channelling).

There will be a southern region of the world that is dominated by a rival religion (based on pre-Muslim Arabic desert gods and less on traditional Islam (I want to avoid any perception of stereo-types or bias opinions). Much of that faith lies in desert Jinn and Efreet and sorcery.

One of the primary evil magician gods of the South is Deutre-Al-Asib of the City State of Asibylon. Deep in the history of the Jovian faith, one of the prime prophets of Jove went to Asibylon to spread the faith and was exposed to the evils of sorcery and was corrupted. He fell from grace and became an enemy of the faith.

Hundreds of years later, when Southern Raiders have invaded the north the kingdoms of the north beat them back. The Temple of Jove would use this as an opportunity to call a crusade to find, capture and destroy Asibylon.

The early crusade captured kingdoms and lands around Asibylon but never the city itself. The crusaders set up their own domains and kingdoms in the captured lands which are pretty much fantasy setting equivalents of the real world crusader states of Outremer.

I need to devise a name similar to Outremer using French or Latin (translating something like End of the Earth or World's End or something like that) and then fantasy it up some. As the setting begins it would be mainly lesser nobles, outlaws, adventurers and mercenaries (and others who are exiled) alongside religious zealots who travel to the Southern Lands to take up the crusade.

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 08:09:34 AM »
Some concepts of mentalism and essence would be permitted in Jovian lands, such as anything related to Astrology and soothsayers. And of course you will always have a few Merlin/Gandalf type figures who seem to be exempt from the rule. But ideas like Sorcery, Demonology, Summoning/Conjuring, Domination, Necromancy are seen as works of demons and evil.

And with this setting you could include european mythos, arabic mythos and egyptian mythos with ease. Crusades vs Mummies and such. Sphinxs, hydras, giant scorpions et al

Offline mocking bird

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 07:05:18 PM »
So I am going with a pseudo Christian faith based Crusade. The religion is of a single prime deity (though there are lesser spirits/saints/angels and such that are essentially demi gods) called Jove. He is a sun-life-law god of sorts.

A part of the faith is a very strong anti-magic (as in sorcery/magician style stuff, essence and mentalism not channelling).

So just don't make any comments about the fish (sorry - Life of Brian reference)

There will be a southern region of the world that is dominated by a rival religion (based on pre-Muslim Arabic desert gods and less on traditional Islam (I want to avoid any perception of stereo-types or bias opinions). Much of that faith lies in desert Jinn and Efreet and sorcery.

One of the primary evil magician gods of the South is Deutre-Al-Asib of the City State of Asibylon. Deep in the history of the Jovian faith, one of the prime prophets of Jove went to Asibylon to spread the faith and was exposed to the evils of sorcery and was corrupted. He fell from grace and became an enemy of the faith.

So they will be split as a 'good vs evil'?  Just curious as you use the terms 'corruption' and 'evil magician'.  Likewise what is the focus of this alternate faith?  Is there an 'anti-Jove' or just an unacceptible modification of Jovian canon?

A couple more things to toss about - unless you don't want to get too in depth.  What about about pre-Jovian cults?  Still around, faded into history, hunted to extinction, etc?  Are Jovians very evangelical, i.e. how strong is the urge to convert the world and what methods are acceptible?
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 05:35:49 AM »


So just don't make any comments about the fish (sorry - Life of Brian reference)

A great movie and one I now must rewatch.



So they will be split as a 'good vs evil'?  Just curious as you use the terms 'corruption' and 'evil magician'.  Likewise what is the focus of this alternate faith?  Is there an 'anti-Jove' or just an unacceptible modification of Jovian canon?

A couple more things to toss about - unless you don't want to get too in depth.  What about about pre-Jovian cults?  Still around, faded into history, hunted to extinction, etc?  Are Jovians very evangelical, i.e. how strong is the urge to convert the world and what methods are acceptible?

From the perspective of the Jovians, yes it is a good vs evil thing. Whether or not Deutre-Al-Asib is evil or not is not truly important. But he represents aspects that do not conform to jovian philosophy. Sorcery and so forth is seen as altering or corrupting the creation of Jove and therefore is a sin, it is to say Jove's work was not complete, wrong or flawed or that another can create better and grander things.

The closest thing to a "anti-Jove" per se would be this fallen prophet. In the Jovian texts and theology they probably associate Deutre-Al-Asib with one of the faith's demons/devils (in classic D&D terms, Asmodeus most likely).

Much like common real faiths and fantasy faiths Jove is a creator god and protector god as well as sun god. His original cult (Solan) became the Jovian faith based on the concept that he was betrayed by his children who desired to use their power for wealth and authority and a single human travelled the known world seeking out Jove's children (primarily his son) to bring him back to his father. In the process, this single human proved that the greatest gift of Jove (a place in the Halls of Jove after death) was attainable by the lowest of Jove's creations (humans) but not a guaranteed gift for his greatest creations (his own children).

Jove was once part of a pantheon of gods until this event when humans started to sideline the other gods or give them roles under Jove (greater gods being reduced to lesser gods and eventually demi-gods). In some areas of the world Jove is still just a minor Sun Deity. In others he is a racial god (elves are fond of him).

His first child, his son, is very much a Morgoth figure in the theology. He was jealous of being denied any of his father's creation powers or authority of the sun and what not. He corrupted his father's creations, created sin (in the Jovian fashion), mutated orcs from breeding men and beasts, created dark elves by deying elves sun light and so forth. For his betrayal his father cursed him with mortality and wept for his loss.

However, one of the lower priests of the cult of Jove (back when it was Solan) sought out the mortal child of Jove and brought him back into the faith just before he died.

Sorry if that was rambling. Jove has been part of our campaign world for 20+ years and is still in a state of work.

Offline Nortti

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 07:12:17 AM »
Crusades is of course excellent material for role-playing games. I think I would also make it very black-and-white in the beginning. A fight of good vs evil. Different aspects of the crusades would surface later on.

Great source for finding out what crusades was like historically is of course wikipedia. I guess there was 8 crusades. Some of them were really surprising, like crusade of the children. There has been also very questionable things going on. Stuff that makes you wonder.

All in all it has been an important period full of conflict and adventure. Europe that was in its dark ages period was again introduced to the scientific and philosophical knowledge it had forgotten. People had been too busy with inquisition, killing heretics and of course witch-burning that there had been no time for such things. Maybe bringing back equivalents of greek classics could be a part of the campaign.

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 11:26:10 AM »
Crusades is of course excellent material for role-playing games. I think I would also make it very black-and-white in the beginning. A fight of good vs evil. Different aspects of the crusades would surface later on.

Great source for finding out what crusades was like historically is of course wikipedia. I guess there was 8 crusades. Some of them were really surprising, like crusade of the children. There has been also very questionable things going on. Stuff that makes you wonder.

All in all it has been an important period full of conflict and adventure. Europe that was in its dark ages period was again introduced to the scientific and philosophical knowledge it had forgotten. People had been too busy with inquisition, killing heretics and of course witch-burning that there had been no time for such things. Maybe bringing back equivalents of greek classics could be a part of the campaign.
My minor in college was the History of the Middle Ages, my specialty were the Crusades.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 09:08:59 PM »
Not rambling at all I hadn't realized it was already a work in progres.  Actually I was a religion major in college, have dabbled in various other things & fascinated by the Crusades. 

An Imsaili mageant would be quite formadible.  But the initial post actually had me thinking more along the Zoroastrian or Manichean duality with the light/dark imagery.  However I do find it interesting that the sun god is good yet fire magic is seen as evil.

But carrying on Nortti's points there are a lot of historical figures and events that probably seem more suited for an RPG than in real life.  In my games and characters I usually try to use historical names as a reference - an assassin named Rashid al din Sinan or a paladin named Jeptha for example - just to see if the other players are paying attention.  Kind of like your quote (even if I had to look it up)
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 04:38:14 AM »
Not rambling at all I hadn't realized it was already a work in progres.  Actually I was a religion major in college, have dabbled in various other things & fascinated by the Crusades. 

An Imsaili mageant would be quite formadible.  But the initial post actually had me thinking more along the Zoroastrian or Manichean duality with the light/dark imagery.  However I do find it interesting that the sun god is good yet fire magic is seen as evil.

But carrying on Nortti's points there are a lot of historical figures and events that probably seem more suited for an RPG than in real life.  In my games and characters I usually try to use historical names as a reference - an assassin named Rashid al din Sinan or a paladin named Jeptha for example - just to see if the other players are paying attention.  Kind of like your quote (even if I had to look it up)

Fire Law as in a essence spell would be considered evil. Fire, burnign and destruction is a perversion of the sun, created by Jove's treacherous offspring. The sun heats, warms and provides light. Altering and mutating its power is to crete fire and death and destruction. Meaning, fire created by sorcery is evil, fire created by channelling Jove and his power is a blessing and gift, creating fire with tinders and flint is ok.

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 04:31:12 PM »
Not rambling at all I hadn't realized it was already a work in progres.  Actually I was a religion major in college, have dabbled in various other things & fascinated by the Crusades. 

An Imsaili mageant would be quite formadible.  But the initial post actually had me thinking more along the Zoroastrian or Manichean duality with the light/dark imagery.  However I do find it interesting that the sun god is good yet fire magic is seen as evil.

But carrying on Nortti's points there are a lot of historical figures and events that probably seem more suited for an RPG than in real life.  In my games and characters I usually try to use historical names as a reference - an assassin named Rashid al din Sinan or a paladin named Jeptha for example - just to see if the other players are paying attention.  Kind of like your quote (even if I had to look it up)

I see your point. Maybe even mix the historical names  up a bit to make them seem more like original characters or ideas when they are just stolen from history. Instead of Leprosy a king with Mummy's Rot (if Rolemaster has a version) or Lycanthropy (doubtful, very doubtful, but you get the idea I hope). Balian of Ibelin becomes Ellian of Bibianne. Richard the Lionheart becomes Leon Richheart (blah). Frederick Barbarosa becomes Broderick Ferrabasa which I turn into Broderick Fire-Beard.

But the main focus I would want to look at and explore are the actual Crusader Kingdoms. European style "monarchies" in the midst of a "muslim" world.

Offline Nortti

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 01:25:56 AM »
Other factions that played an important part in the crusades were of course the Byzantine empire and the jews. This brings us to an interesting dilemma and I would like to know how you would solve it.

Considering the fact that the campaign is of good vs evil in nature how would these factions be seen? During the first crusade the jewish and muslim populations of Jerusalem fought together against the crusaders. Crusaders (the good faction) massacred both the jewish and the muslim population of the city. It just makes me wonder if this makes the jews evil too?

On a way to the holy land during the second crusade the do-gooders massacred the jewish population in rhineland. It seems clear that crusaders saw the jews as their enemies but is it enough to define the jews as evil?

Btw murdering defenseless civilians is kind of difficult for me to see as a good deed but maybe I have a lot to learn about this good-versus-evil thing. Or maybe they just atoned later?

During the fourth crusade Constantinople the capitol of the Byzantine empire was sacked. A crusader kingdom like in your campaign was formed. There must have been a good reason to attack the city as forces of good would not do such a thing otherwise. Or would they? Maybe the Byzantines were evil too?

I know these are big questions but as we know you have done comprehensive research on this subject so I trust you have well founded answers. 

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 08:21:06 AM »
Other factions that played an important part in the crusades were of course the Byzantine empire and the jews. This brings us to an interesting dilemma and I would like to know how you would solve it.

Considering the fact that the campaign is of good vs evil in nature how would these factions be seen? During the first crusade the jewish and muslim populations of Jerusalem fought together against the crusaders. Crusaders (the good faction) massacred both the jewish and the muslim population of the city. It just makes me wonder if this makes the jews evil too?

On a way to the holy land during the second crusade the do-gooders massacred the jewish population in rhineland. It seems clear that crusaders saw the jews as their enemies but is it enough to define the jews as evil?

Btw murdering defenseless civilians is kind of difficult for me to see as a good deed but maybe I have a lot to learn about this good-versus-evil thing. Or maybe they just atoned later?

During the fourth crusade Constantinople the capitol of the Byzantine empire was sacked. A crusader kingdom like in your campaign was formed. There must have been a good reason to attack the city as forces of good would not do such a thing otherwise. Or would they? Maybe the Byzantines were evil too?

I know these are big questions but as we know you have done comprehensive research on this subject so I trust you have well founded answers.
I have only one answer. Good and Evil are a representation of personal belief. The Crusaders who did these atrocities you are talking abotu did not see themselves as evil any more than the turks thought they were evil, or the saracens or the Nazis. Are they evil? Depends on who you ask.

And you are talking about the reality of history and a game setting. The atrocities committed by Amico during the slaughter int eh Rhineland were horrid and uncalled for (even without going too far into today's mentality of the great white guilt) and was criticized by the church as well as the major leads of the crusades. During the Thrid Crusade, Phillip, Richard and Frederick went through great pains to ensure another similar event did not happen.

The Fourth Crusade was also a disaster that ended with the sacking of Constantinople because the expedition ran out of money and the Genoese and Venetian merchants who were funding equipment, transportation and other supplied for the Crusades wanted their money and more or less forced the crusaders to sack the city to get their money.

However, in this setting there are no Solans living in the southern realms (at least in great numbers) and there is no counterpart to The Eastern Empire.

Lastly I want to reiterate that the idea of good vs evil is based upon what view and side you are one. The religion of Jove decalres sorcerous magic to be in general evil, therefore its practitioners are evil and so on.

The acts of barbarism in the crusades were often from desperation, greed and other machinations. Does that make Christianity evil? A desire to "liberate" their sacred city from the "infidel"? In todays morality, yeah it does, but we are talking 1000 years ago.

And for the record, after the second crusade and leading up to the third crusade, the Jewish, Christian and Muslim populations of Jerusalem banded together to fight Salah-A-Din and his invading force. Sure, they were not slaughtered to a man but those who could not pay a ransom were sold into lifelong slavery.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 06:38:02 PM »
I see your point. Maybe even mix the historical names  up a bit to make them seem more like original characters or ideas when they are just stolen from history. Instead of Leprosy a king with Mummy's Rot (if Rolemaster has a version) or Lycanthropy (doubtful, very doubtful, but you get the idea I hope). Balian of Ibelin becomes Ellian of Bibianne. Richard the Lionheart becomes Leon Richheart (blah). Frederick Barbarosa becomes Broderick Ferrabasa which I turn into Broderick Fire-Beard.

Not even that - have a local ruthless landowner called Simon De Monfort, crusader knight Jacque de Molay, healer Avicenna, etc.  Built in character background.  You have alternate built infactions to play with as well - the Abbysids, Mamluks, etc.  Most frpgs are based on a romanticized version of the Middle Ages - why not use them more directly?

Fire Law as in a essence spell would be considered evil. Fire, burnign and destruction is a perversion of the sun, created by Jove's treacherous offspring. The sun heats, warms and provides light. Altering and mutating its power is to crete fire and death and destruction. Meaning, fire created by sorcery is evil, fire created by channelling Jove and his power is a blessing and gift, creating fire with tinders and flint is ok.

That makes sense - not it could bear a resemblance to the Prometheus/Lucifer myths where the 'trecherous offspring' you mention above could be seen as a liberator who gave people aspects of fire (or knowledge) previously kept from them.  Adding another layer fire is also necessary in the making of steel and weapons, i.e. warfare.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline peacekeeper_b

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 06:57:22 PM »

That makes sense - not it could bear a resemblance to the Prometheus/Lucifer myths where the 'trecherous offspring' you mention above could be seen as a liberator who gave people aspects of fire (or knowledge) previously kept from them.  Adding another layer fire is also necessary in the making of steel and weapons, i.e. warfare.

Yep, lots of options to choose from and variety in the possibilities. I will look at your ideas when I sit down to write some stuff up.

Offline Nortti

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Re: The Crusades
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 01:47:01 AM »
Quote
Lastly I want to reiterate that the idea of good vs evil is based upon what view and side you are one. The religion of Jove decalres sorcerous magic to be in general evil, therefore its practitioners are evil and so on.


Thats how it normally goes in the world when there is no real distinction between good and evil. There are no good or evil deeds or people but just different sides. Civilian-massacring, pillaging mob can be seen as the good guys. Even if you extort money by threats and still massacre your victims after getting that money you can still be seen as good.

But, I have to beg to differ. Good and evil really exist. If you murder and steal you are evil. Its not just a matter of opinion. It seems to me that many of the good vs evil campaigns are just us vs them.