Topic: Need opinion: Spell Shaping - Spell Typing and Bolt Form I

[Dreven1]

Hello all!

I need some other GM's/Players opinions of the Arcane list "Spell shaping" list. Specifically "Bolt Form I" and "Spell Typing" spells.

I have a player who is level 11 and developed three ranks in Directed spell for "Bolt Form I" from the Spell Shaping list in the Arcane Companion.

He wanted to use this to turn a "Dispell Magic" spell into a Bolt Form.  With his directed spell bonus, this gives the Dispell magic a +88 on the Base Attack Table.

This seems AWFULLY powerful to me and I was wondering if another other GM's had this same issue.  I was thinking about changing the spell to only allow for the player to add the RANKS in the directed spell and not the entire bonues to bring the power of that 6th level spell back into perspective.

Also, the 20th level spell "Spell Typing" states that you can turn a "sleep spell" into a "E" type spell where the target or targets dont get any RR.
This is also crazy powerful in my humble opinion.  I need help because I pissed him off last game session by not reviewing what he wanted to do with the spell lists before he played with it.  I know I am at fault here but I dont have the time to run down each and every spell they pick up and cross review its "combinations" with all the other 3,200 spells :-/ there is just not enough time in the day!  We have only played with him casting this spell twice since he got it and the first time was not so bad (it was a healing spell and did great!) this time ... this dispel magic has a chance to ALWAYS dispel 50th level magic with a 56+ RR that it would have to make... this combination allows for a 11th level caster with a 6th level Bolt Form spell and a 3rd level Wizard "Spell Bane" Disepel magic spell to dispel more than 50% of the time a 50th level active spell.   
Please help, am I just nutz or does this work the way I think it works?!?!?

So, how would any of you handle these two types of spells?
Thanks in advance!
Dreven

[Ynglaur]

Arcane is powerful stuff, but I don't think the form of Dispel Magic would affect its efficacy...I haven't read those rules in awhile, but I don't see how a BAR would apply to a Dispel Magic spell at all.  Does the Bolt Form spell state such?

Re: Spell Typing, it's probably a touch overpowered as written.  Just have your PC cast it once, though, an an opposing magic user with Spell Trigger setup ahead of time.  If you allow multiple Spell Triggers, this can get especially nasty, and could explain why spell users are cautious around one another (i.e. everyone has nuclear weapons).  "If spell cast on me involuntarily and I fail to resist, invoke Dispel Magic, invoke Fireball, invoke Teleport".

[Dreven1]

Hello Ynglaur,

The spell states that any spell can be turned into a bolt spell (besides DE and BE) and instead of using the normal BAR roll you can add the Directed spell bonus for that character.  So, if a 3rd level Wizard "Dispel Magic" spell normally reads that the resisting spell gets an RR, then the Bolt Spell I would allow the character to use their EAR on the BAR table (the Arcanist has a +88 on the Directed Spell).  Therefore topping the chart (at 95) almost 100% of the time.  The Resisting spell gets a -55 added to its RR roll therefore making even the most potent spells (level 50) VERY easy to overcome.
A level 11 attack spell vs. a level 50 resist spell = RR for level 50 spell is a 7.  With the BAR table it usually = 95 which is -55 on the "Other" armor Channeling column.  Thus, the Level 50 spell must roll OVER a 57 in order to NOT be dispelled with a dispel magic spell changed into bolt form.

Does this sound RIGHT?! I am very confused.

[jdale]

That sounds like you understand what it says, which is:

Instead of making a normal BAR, he rolls d100 (open-ended) and adds his Directed Spell skill plus 10 (target may subtract his normal DB). He looks up the result on the Basic Spell Attack Table to determine the victim's RR modification.

Make sure to take into account target DB. I would rule that if shaped into a bolt, the spell will no longer be an area effect spell, it has to hit the target. For dispel magic, that means the target spell has to have at least some kind of quasi-physical form or be cast on a specific object (or person). Would work on a glyph, an illusion, etc. If the target spell is cast specifically on a person or object, you would have to hit that person or object, using their DB. You could also rule that if it is a freestanding spell (e.g. an illusion) it gets a DB equal to the spell level. That would make it harder to dispel a level 50 spell.

[Cory Magel]

Sounds almost like a way to increase effectiveness of low level spells cast by high level casters.

[providence13]

This is in the general RM forum, so I might not understand exactly which version you use.

My stipulation would be that he develop Directed Spell for this Bolt. My players have to develop Dir Spell for each type of Bolt they use. We play RMFRP.

Like others have said, the Dir Spell just ensures that it hit the target. Should it actually change the effectiveness of the spell? IDK..

[jdale]

I quoted the Arcane Companion for RMSS, I believe that title (which Dreven1 mentioned) is only RMSS.

I agree that you would need to develop Directed Spell skill for each type of bolt. But if you have a lot of ranks in the category you would have a head start on this.

As I quoted, the spell description is explicit about rolling and adding your directed spells bonus, and looking up the total on the BAR table. That does give a big boost, since BAR bonuses are usually very low. That said, this is an Arcane Base list. All normal limitations on Arcane apply (e.g. increased chance of spell failure - and in this case you cast this spell to enhance a second spell, so you have multiple opportunities for failure). But given the nature of the Arcanist base lists, which have a lot of metamagic but less offense, I don't know it's a real issue for the Arcanist profession. When allowing characters to learn base lists of other professions, there are always going to be synergy issues to watch out for, and especially so I think when it comes to Arcane.

[Dreven1]

I think my only concern would be that the BAR roll is normally, say a +11 or +22 for the BAR which accounts for ranks in the list, but with the directed spell bonus, say +60 or in my case +88, the difference is that any spell which requires an RR would always (or almost always) be a -55 to the targets RR.

This to me is a bit over the top, but if the general consensus is that its "ok" because of the increased chance of failure then I am ok with that.
I pissed off a player the other night because we never play tested this and I thought it too powerful… right now I just can’t see the forest for the trees right now.

Another two questions:
1) Does the Bolt Spell also get the Range bonuses so within 1-10' there is an additional +35 for range?
2) If a spell type is changed to "E" from an "F" does the target not get any RR's?  If so, what EAR attack chart is used?

These two spells are causing me nightmares with all the playtesting that must be done with them...

[Jacchan]

Well, with Bolt Form the dispel magic acquires various limitation, like jdale wrote.
In my opinion, Dispel Magic becomes "phisical",  a bolt. If the target is movable you have to subtract the target's DB and uou can't use the "Bolt of Dispel" against a intangible forms, like illusion or something that can't be touched.
Yes, is a powered version of dispel but is also a limited version.
And, don't forget that Arcane magic is powerful but very difficult to use... And easy to fail!

1) Does the Bolt Spell also get the Range bonuses so within 1-10' there is an additional +35 for range?

For me, yes.

[Cory Magel]

This to me is a bit over the top...

I agree it's over the top.  It makes some spells too strong, to the point that the target doesn't stand much chance of resisting.  I have implemented a way for casters to 'overcast' spells in RMSS, but it's not all that cost effective (intentionally).

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Well, with Bolt Form the dispel magic acquires various limitation, like jdale wrote.

There are others: range modifiers, for instance, aren't the same for base spells and directed spells, you can use a shield against directed spells, there are more (AFAIK) spells (and probably magical items) to deflect a directed spell (i.e., get a DB modifier vs. directed spells) than to deflect base spells, etc. Not to mention the DB issue, as most characters/monsters have a WAY better defence against directed spells (such as a high quickness-based DB) than against a base spell...

At last, "anything a PC uses can be used by the NPC." I say that instead of arguing with the PC about the matter, you should thank him for the idea and start making NPCs who use it. :p
It's a law of the world: "Any good idea that is used publicly and intensively, and can be reproduced SHALL be reproduced and used by someone other than the person at the origin of the idea."

[Dreven1]

Good input.  I think there are so many questions with these two spells.  Here are a few I just came up with while sitting here for 5 minutes.

1) How to handle a 3rd level "dispel magic" spell on a stationary ward/rune.  Right now, if the 11th caster wanted to try to dispel a 50th level ward/rune the base RR is only 7.  However turn it into a bolt spell and it jumps to 57+ on each dispel attempt.  (Directed spell bonus, +35 for being AT the ward/rune, -0 DB (what wall has DB?), etc… tops the chart almost always.)
2) If someone casts a Bolt Spell - Sleep X - does it just hit one target? Does it split into as many bolts as there are levels up to the max of the sleep X spell? Are there each separate attack rolls made with the Directed spell on those other targets? Is it just one roll applied to everyone?
3) How do you use this spell with a Summon spell? Crazy stuff here if the Demon etc has to resist vs a directed spell bonus + range… a 11th level cast has more than a 50% chance to control a demon beyond the pale.
4) What about "Aura of Confusion" - does the target also get the +20 mod to the Resist? Is the 10' around the target count for the bolt? or from the person casting the bolt? or from the impact of the bolt? Or does it confuse everyone within 10' of the bolt being fired all the way to the target?
5) "Wall of Fire" an "E" spell which is valid according to the description of the Bolt Spell... does this hurl a 10x10x1 wall against a target... in the Wall spell it states no RR, but the bolt spell rolls on the BAR table which affects the targets RR... so does this mean that by simply using a combination of a bolt spell (100' range) and a Wall of Fire spell that anyone within 100' can in essence receive an "A" crit with no RR and almost always hitting?
6) Teleport/Leaving - ugah. Can the bolt then target and affect someone who normally cannot be affected (Unwillingly) by something like a teleport spell?  And just "teleport" a 50th level dragon 50' into rock?

The combinations and CONFUSION of this are almost endless and have pathetic guidelines on how to use this spell (or its big brother "Spell Typing")

[yammahoper]

Love that arcane list.  Arcan magic is to brush against madness.  Let the games begin.

The level 50 storm spell is AWESOME when combined with Runemage's magic slumber spell.

[jdale]

1) I suggested using the target spell's level as DB.
2) The bolt can only hit one target. If you used this with an area effect spell, you a sacrificing that benefit to get the bonuses of a directed spell. One target.
3) Target the demon. It will probably have DB. If the summoning spell summoned multiple entities, only one can be banished per casting.
4) What list is Aura of Confusion on?
5) Easiest resolution would be to roll it on the Fire Bolt table but the maximum result is an A critical and no hits (the effect of being in a wall of fire).
6) Ok, turning utility spells into offense is pretty broken. I would say you can't use this on type U spells, even though that limits it more than the rules as written.

[rdanhenry]

Well, U or E, you cannot teleport into solid matter. Follow the chain of "As..., except..." back to Long Door... an attempt to enter solid or liquid matter simply prevents the teleport from ever happening. As there is never any change that overrides this, all the higher teleport spells must work the same way. (Except for the Teleport on the Closed Arcane list Shifting Law, which is based on Leaving and therefore excludes any travel with an intervening barrier as well, but that's symptomatic of the slipshod production of the Arcane Companion.)

[Jacchan]

Well, U or E, you cannot teleport into solid matter. Follow the chain of "As..., except..." back to Long Door... an attempt to enter solid or liquid matter simply prevents the teleport from ever happening. As there is never any change that overrides this, all the higher teleport spells must work the same way. (Except for the Teleport on the Closed Arcane list Shifting Law, which is based on Leaving and therefore excludes any travel with an intervening barrier as well, but that's symptomatic of the slipshod production of the Arcane Companion.)

Yes.
If you use bolt form with teleport, to me, you teleport yourself where the bolt hit. And you can't teleport into solid matter and if you try... Well, stunned!

[markc]

 I think there was a ruling on this way back when by the old ICE in the Archives you may want to do a search of them to get additional info.
MDC

[MariusH]

I think you should not allow the player to develop directed spell skill in "Bolt Form I". Each bolt should be developed separately, in my opinion. So, he should develop one "dispel magic" bolt. If he wishes to use other spells as bolts, these should be developed separately. And of course targets should get their DBs, shields and stuff against the bolt, like they would against ordinary bolts. It may still be powerful, but unless he spends LOTS of DPs to develop a variety of bolts, it at least becomes less flexible.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

1) How to handle a 3rd level "dispel magic" spell on a stationary ward/rune.  Right now, if the 11th caster wanted to try to dispel a 50th level ward/rune the base RR is only 7.  However turn it into a bolt spell and it jumps to 57+ on each dispel attempt.  (Directed spell bonus, +35 for being AT the ward/rune, -0 DB (what wall has DB?), etc… tops the chart almost always.)

I don't know why you're so focused on that part, considering that the Basic Spell attack table has a maximum and you DO have to roll your base spell attack anyway, meaning you can have the same result with a normal Basic Spell attack roll than with your Directed Spell bonus. Considering that in your example, the ward/rune would be "static" (+10 to BAR), and the spell caster would probably touch it (+30 to BAR), resulting in a +40, it wouldn't be hard to reach the maximum of the chart anyway... Sure, it's easier with the DS spell... but at the cost of developping an Arcane spell (and the associated Directed Spell --remember, it should be a different one for each bolt spell, thus each spell put in bolt form), and casting it in addition to the dispell spell. Since there's a max. to the BA table, after some time (and some level!), it ceases to matter much (e.g., other casters would be able to reach that max. but without the associated costs [Arcane list + DS skill], casting time [no need to cast the Arcane spell], problem with casting an Arcane spell, etc.).