Topic: Undead and sense affecting spells

[Dreven1]

Hello all,

I had a question come up last game session.  I have a cleric try to cast "Blind" on a vampire.

This caused us great debate since "Undead" sense the living (according to Creatures and Monsters).
So, blinding a vampire would cause his eyes not to work but he/she would then still be able to perfectly sense where all the living were.

How have you handled this? I ruled that the Vampire would get a -50 for partially blocking his sight "sense" but I didnt want to give the full -100 since the Vampire can opt just to "sense" them.

I know a skeletion doenst have eyes... so would this spell work? Would it work against ANY Undead?

The second part of this scenario... the spell was "F" and not "Fm" so... I have used a general rule that "Fm" spells dont affect undead. However, this is a "F" (force) spell.

Questions:
1) How do you handle Blindness (F) spells or any sense spells on Undead, especially undead which actually have eyes, ears, nose, mouths, skin.
2) Do Force (F) spells affect Undead or do Force mental (Fm) spells affect undead or do neither affect them?
3) Can all undead "sense" the living, if so what's the range? Do the living get an RR vs. this detection spell?
Thanks! 
Drev

[rdanhenry]

Many undead lack eyes and cannot see in the traditional sense. Vampires do have eyes and can see. Therefore, vampires are among the minority of undead subject to Blindness. Since they can still sense the living, they attack them as if they were invisible, but detected, -50. In short, my reasoning agrees with your ruling.

Undead simply sense the living as an inherent ability. There's no range given, and I would expect it varies between types of undead. No RR, as it is not a spell.

Undead get no general immunity to Force spells, but most GMs give at least a majority of undead immunity to "m" subtype spells. Personally, I'd use this rule of thumb: If you could picture this undead type being a fully-developed character that could be a PC in an "evil characters" campaign, it has sufficient mind to be targeted with "m" spells. Otherwise, it is immune. Even when subject to "m" spells, there would be individual spell immunities: vampires have eyes, so they can be blinded; liches lack eyes, whatever visual impressions they get are of a magical order, and these being cannot be blinded. You cannot Calm a hungry vampire. Etc.

[Dreven1]

Cool, thanks RDanHenry,

I also was thinking that Force (F) spells do affect undead but that the spell needs a little tweaking... instead of calling it "Blindness" it would be "Dampen Sense".  So, no matter what "sense" the creature was using, it would have the same effect but would just dampen their main "sense living" ability.

I also like your rule of "invisible, but detected, -50". 

I will hit my players up and see what rule they prefer to play under! 

[providence13]

I rule that undead can sense the living. The range is sort of revealed between the lines in the books.

For me, the range that undead Con drain/Cold Aura is the range that they sense the living.. The source shouldn't be hard to track down.

IMO, Vampires have enough of a mind to affect with (m) spells. But I usually give them pretty good bonuses from their vamp stats. I would allow Blindness; it could affect the eyes, but yeah, that's not their only source of info.

+1 "detected but not seen" 

[Dreven1]

Ok I hammered this out, what do you think? 

1)   If the undead have any sense, then it can be affected. (sight, feeling, hearing, smell, taste)
2)   It was suggested that Undead have a constant “Detect living” around them at all times.  Similar to the Presence spell however with a twist!
a.   Perceive Living — Entity is aware of the presence of all living beings within his range.”  Range would be the range of the “constitution drain” range if the undead had it.  For other undead 15’ seems appropriate (but was just a suggestion) so it can vary with intelligence.
3)   Perceive Living can only be masked by “un-presence” spells (Ess pg 52 and Ment spells page 45, 60)
4)   If Undead are blinded by a blind spell then any living creature around them is treated as “invisible, but detected, -50"
5)   If someone has a “Un-presence” spell cast on them then a Vampire can see them normally but not detect them with their Perceive Living aura.
6)   If someone blinded a vampire and also had an “Un-presence” spell cast on them then they would be totally invisible to the undead.