Topic: Feedback from a brand new player

[Merkir]

Hi All,
After 20 years away from RM, I'm now trying to get back into it by recruiting new players. As a result, one of my best friends from my wargames group has just bought a set of RM books and has given me permission to post his feedback, originally meant only for me, but I thought it was so relevant that I'm pasting it here verbatim. See below.
Cheers.

On 13/11/2012 3:31 PM, Mark wrote:

    Hi David,

    I ordered my Rolemaster books last night and I picked up a couple of the OOP companions from Noble Knight.  It does look like a good system.  I also read your post on the ICE forums and it looks like it’s sparked some interesting discussion.  One thing I’ve noticed as an outsider looking in, is the overall lack of “polish” or “professionalism” in both the website and the books.   Not critical nor really important for me, but for convincing new players to put down their hard earned cash, then I would think that it becomes an important factor.

    Additionally, it’s a very opaque system when you first start looking at it, I found myself asking questions like, what books do I need, what OOP material  is still relevant, what’s the real difference between the two RM systems and the obvious question “why” are there two systems and which one is relevant to me.  I also found myself wondering at, what appears to be, a complete lack of content, where are the modules, where are the campaign worlds and where are other resources that I need to design a campaign or adventure.  If these do exist, then I think ICE need to make them more prominent because, apart from a few, I couldn’t find that many.

    I might be missing something, but adventure modules seem few and far between so, as a newcomer, I need to either design my own or find one of the few modules that seems to be written for the system. So then I asked myself questions, well, what modules do exist, is there a list, why doesn’t the ICE website have this information.  Writing your own module or campaign is very time consuming and I would hazard a guess that most people just want to buy pre-designed modules and then plug them into their campaign.  I think ICE should look to companies like Goodman Games, Frog God Games or Expeditious Retreat Press who produce modules for multiple RPG systems.  For example, FGG publish books designed for Pathfinder, but they also sell D&D and other RPG versions of their books (so you can buy a Pathfinder version of Rapan Athuk, but you can also buy versions of Rapan Athuk for other RPG systems).  I wouldn’t think it would not take too much time for somebody to convert pre-existing modules to the RM system at least as start (certainly not as much as designing your own).

    I think that a lot of people would head over to the ICE site and see this great set of rules and ask “where’s the content”.  Nobody would want to invest many hours into designing an adventure for a system they’ve not used before.  This means that they would need pre-existing RM players to give them a leg up, which I don’t think there are too many of.  This is exactly how Pathfinder started.  Paizo Press originally wrote D&D compatible modules and resources, but then when they decided to produce their own rules, they started writing linked adventure modules and started “fleshing” out their campaign world.  It helped that it was closely related to 3.5E so the conversion process wasn’t that hard, but it sure beats writing your own.

    To me the system still feels like it’s in a state of flux.  You told me there is a RMU project, but that’s buried in their forums, where is the news on this, what’s the timeframe for delivery, how far progressed is it, should I buy now or wait, what are the goals?  I think this information should be prominent, not buried in a forum. At the moment, it sort of has the feel of an old system with many OOP resources and books that isn’t really supported much anymore.

    The system seems great, but at the moment I think it’s like the Playstation Vita, great console system, but where are the games?  RM looks to be a great system, but if I have to sit down and design a module for 30-40 hours before I play, I’m probably not going to put the effort in as the barrier to entry is too high.  As a player I don’t really have to worry about it as that’s GMs job, but if I were a GM and I had a choice of other systems which might not be as good but has oodles of content, I’m going to take the easier path.  I think other example of RPGs that have this problem are Harn and Palladium, both great systems, but have you seen any Harn or Palladium modules recently, neither have I.  I think Harn is universally recognised as one of the richest low tech/fantasy RPG medieval systems and worlds around, but I’ve never met anybody that’s actually played it.

    Cheers
    Mark

[yammahoper]

Excellent post.  Thank you for sharing that.

One question: which version was he looking at?  Just curious.

[Ecthelion]

Valid points

[markc]

merkir,
 Very important points all. I will forward it to Colin and others.
MDC

[RandalThor]

I agree with Mark totally about the modules thing, and it has been something that I have said many times over the course of several years.

I could see aspects of the game going open so that different companies could put out product for the game, thusly ensuring more and more content and exposure.

[intothatdarkness]

Modules and settings, IMO, have always been a weakness of RM and ICE (aside from MERP, of course).

[Old Man]

Modules and settings, IMO, have always been a weakness of RM and ICE (aside from MERP, of course).

And Shadow World.

(scuttles back to his pen and paper...)

[yammahoper]

I really like SW, but there has not been near enough materials released since the 90's to spit at.  The good news is the materials are very good when released, but even then, they aim at general information providing a big picture and very little highly detailed adventures.

[mgarnett]

Hi Guys,

I'm the newbie that sent the email through to David.  I have to admit, that without his help and good feedback on the system, it probably would have stayed on the "I might buy it one day" list.  I ended up getting RM Classic, but I needed to rely on David as to which system was the more up to date and feature rich.

Cheers

Mark

[HighNDry]

Hard for me to think like that as I have stacks of RM adventures and a bookshelf full of MERP ones. Back in the 80s there was a ton of them and it's hard to get now. RM 2nd edition & RM3rd both have a lot of extras that are now out of print.

Tracking down a few of those on ebay or finding pdfs for sale may help some. Also D&D 1st & 2nd edition settings converts very easily. There are tons of canon rules for that as Arms Law was originally intended to work with AD&D. Our group ran Forgotten Realms for a couple of years using the Rolemaster 2nd edition and had a ton of fun. Course we also converted AD&D Undermountain into GURPS, so we enjoyed mixing systems with different campaign settings.

[Merkir]

Hi Guys,

I'm the newbie that sent the email through to David.  I have to admit, that without his help and good feedback on the system, it probably would have stayed on the "I might buy it one day" list.  I ended up getting RM Classic, but I needed to rely on David as to which system was the more up to date and feature rich.

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

Great to see you here at the forums and thanks again for letting me post your initial feedback. Since it looks like I'll be GMing initially, I was taking a look for campaign settings and/or just standalone adventures and I agree 100% with you that they're a bit few and far between.

I'd like feedback from more experienced GMs/players on this topic.

I suggested Shadow World or Cyradon perhaps, but MERP setting/modules I have very fond memories of and we probably only played 10% of the MERP modules "way back then".  I have quite a few Shadow World books from 20+ years ago which still seem viable (I think?).

What would others suggest for a good campaign setting? And what's a good single module we could use as an initial learning experience for the brand new player(s)?

And another shameless request...

We now have 3 definite starters for a new RM group in Sydney, Australia, but struggling to find more. If anyone can help find others, please do!

[Merkir]

Hard for me to think like that as I have stacks of RM adventures and a bookshelf full of MERP ones. Back in the 80s there was a ton of them and it's hard to get now. RM 2nd edition & RM3rd both have a lot of extras that are now out of print.

Tracking down a few of those on ebay or finding pdfs for sale may help some. Also D&D 1st & 2nd edition settings converts very easily. There are tons of canon rules for that as Arms Law was originally intended to work with AD&D. Our group ran Forgotten Realms for a couple of years using the Rolemaster 2nd edition and had a ton of fun. Course we also converted AD&D Undermountain into GURPS, so we enjoyed mixing systems with different campaign settings.

Good feedback, HighNDry.

Currently if I were to choose right now, I'd choose MERP, despite the cost of obtaining the OOP modules. But I also need to discuss with players to find what types of settings they like.

I had considered briefly using D&D settings but had not expected the conversion to be easy, so now I'll put Forgotten Realms (and other D&D settings) on the list of possibilities. If you can point me to any resources that allow simple conversion of settings/modules, that would be great.


Finally, a little more constructive feedback for ICE management, and this follows up on some of Mark's feedback...

The www.ironcrown.com website needs a "Getting Started" section so that people such as ourselves (newbies or old players getting back into it again) aren't completely in the dark:

1. Which core rules to buy, Classic or RMFRP, and why?
2. What suggested settings/modules to buy, or where to find them if OOP.
3. Where to find new players or existing groups, or be pointed in the right direction to ask in the right places.
4. etc.

Cheers.

[Merkir]

ps. I'm fully aware of this page - http://www.ironcrown.com/?page_id=711 - but this doesn't really help potential new players. Far more hand-holding is required. The problem is that the two versions seem to be given equal weight. New players need to be told which is the preferred way to get into RM, with reasons. The sad fact is that if I were a brand new player I'd read this, put my hands in the air, and think "what do I buy"?  Mark did exactly this.

pps. I realise RMU is meant to solve this issue, but in the meantime?....

[Old Man]

...
Tracking down a few of those on ebay or finding pdfs for sale may help some. Also D&D 1st & 2nd edition settings converts very easily. There are tons of canon rules for that as Arms Law was originally intended to work with AD&D. Our group ran Forgotten Realms for a couple of years using the Rolemaster 2nd edition and had a ton of fun. Course we also converted AD&D Undermountain into GURPS, so we enjoyed mixing systems with different campaign settings.

Oddly enough (perhaps) I began my main/longest RM campaign 1st with adapting Temple of Hommlet then converting a bunch of ... Dragonquest modules.

[HighNDry]

For D&D conversions, 2nd edition actually has many or the rules scattered in the core books. Having never played 3rd or RMFRP, I do not know if they do as well. When 3rd came out we looked at the rules and decided to just keep our 2nd edition stuff and keep buying MERP supplements.

The Guild Companion has started a pretty cool conversion of Forgotten Realms, you can see it on their pages here:
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2012/jun/frrm01.html
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2012/sep/frrm02.html
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2012/oct/frrm03.html
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2012/nov/frrm04.html

They are pretty detailed, but you can always use the RM NPC premade charts for many of the unimportant npcs.
Also the book 'Rolemaster Heroes and Rogues' is great for speeding things up. Ice produced a 2nd & 3rd edition of it so your good whichever version your playing.

[RandalThor]

merkir, I highly suggest Shadow World. Yes, they are still viable and Terry is still working on the setting. I believe that if ICE saw a resurgence in in SW players, they would be more likely to support his writing more so he would be able to do more, and quicker. (Hopefully.)

Plus, in each of the setting-modules there are several adventure seeds, most of which have just about everything you need to run them, including NPC stats, location maps, plot, etc...

Also, SW truly what I call high fantasy, you know, with the cool buildings (just check out the Dragonlord Citadel in NE Jamain), and several aspects that break it away from the "middle-ages with monsters and magic" style that has come to dominate the industry. (Of which, I am entirely sick of.)

[ironmaul]

That was an interesting letter to read and highlights a lot of things that can be improved. Hopefully once RMU is finally released it will solve a lot of those issues.

One thing I’ve noticed as an outsider looking in, is the overall lack of “polish” or “professionalism” in both the website and the books.

Mark, could you elaborate on this aspect in your letter. What would make the books more professional looking? just curious.

Cheers,
Rick.

[mocking bird]

Another option is to check out the Echoes of Heaven products.  It is an excellent setting several cool modules.  They are also statted for RM (probably RMFRP), HARP, HERO and d20 (not sure if 3.0 or 3.5) to compare things to if you are more familiar with those systems.  Alas the product line seems to be languishing  but there are several modules out to keep you occupied for a while.  Be advised however that the modules are chronological but not necessarily meant to be run in order, i.e. you won't get enough exp in one to immediately run the next.  You can get fairly inexpensive pdf's to look at.  The world map done in campaign cartographer is really a thing of beauty.

I would think the 'polish' and 'professionalism' might refer to the genearal layout of the books.  The progression of the chapters and nor very usefull index has always irked my.  You do need someone to show you what they mean since a lot of rules are presented in chart form without much explanation.

[Merkir]

Many thanks HighNDry, RandalThor, mocking bird on the excellent feedback re possible campaign settings.

These would be well placed within the suggested "Getting Started" section of the site.

For simplicity we'll probably start with one of the off-the-shelf RM settings and we'll keep the conversion links up our sleeves for possible future use.

Thanks again.

[Colin-ICE]

Hi guys,
 
There are some very good points being raised in this thread and I encourage you to continue these discussions. It is always good to get feedback on what the fans think we are doing right or wrong.
 
I thought I’d just pop my head it to address the points raised by the original “newbie” and offer explanations and plans for the future.
 
Firstly we agree with your points about “polish” and “professionalism” in both the website and some of our printed products. We are currently in the process of creating a brand new website which will not only look a lot more polished and professional but will also be A LOT easier to navigate and offer a lot more support and information for those that are new to ICE products. With regards to the books; I am aware that, in the past, there have been some books released that could have been laid out better. I have for a long time thought that offering books only in B&W has been a flaw in ICE’s offering. We are currently working on releasing some of our more recent products in color (for more information see this month’s director’s briefing).
 
As I have mentioned we are trying to make the new website very “newcomer friendly” and make it a lot easier for people to understand the differences between each of our systems and settings. This includes making it a lot clearer as to what settings and adventures are available for which system and offering easy access to user submitted content such as adventures and e-support products. With your specific comments in mind we are now going to look back over our new website to be sure that we have addressed your concerns.

Colin