Topic: instant and init idea

[Marc R]

I'm fairly certain that the RAW core considers item casting to be casting, and subject to the 1/round limitation. . .if you roll a UM 01 item casting, you go to spell failure, and the user of the item is subject to the result, as they are considered to be the "caster" of the spell. . .and per the RAW you can only cast one spell per round.

The RAW thus wouldn't allow you to cast from a magic ring, then a wand, then a magic ring, all in the same round.

As to length of time to use, on the RM2/RMC side the default core is that spells from items take as long as they normally would.

Option 9.1 (Which I thought became the default for RMSS) is all item casting is "Class I" (i.e. 1 round or instant if instant)

Option 9.2 is all item casting goes off as if instant.

9.2 kind of makes sense if you view magic items as akin to technology, point and pull the trigger.

[markc]

 I used to use a second by second system but my current group does not like the book keeping. So on to testing a new system.




 As per the Passive Defense Spells: I can see some of them that affect a hex side or a 90 degree arc, that have the same or close to the same properties as they do now. So you would need 4 (6 top and bottom) or 6 ( of them cover you in all directions.
MDC

[pastaav]

I'm fairly certain that the RAW core considers item casting to be casting, and subject to the 1/round limitation. . .if you roll a UM 01 item casting, you go to spell failure, and the user of the item is subject to the result, as they are considered to be the "caster" of the spell. . .and per the RAW you can only cast one spell per round.

The RAW thus wouldn't allow you to cast from a magic ring, then a wand, then a magic ring, all in the same round.

I agree, IMHO it is for good reasons.

As to length of time to use, on the RM2/RMC side the default core is that spells from items take as long as they normally would.

Option 9.1 (Which I thought became the default for RMSS) is all item casting is "Class I" (i.e. 1 round or instant if instant)

Nope, RMSS and RMFRP core books does not include anything of that kind. The only book that contain rules for activating magic items are Treasure Companion and it states that all magic items take a round to activate no matter the original time of the spell.

Option 9.2 is all item casting goes off as if instant.

Any stories from people who has actually played with that option active? It sounds like it would make magic items incredibly useful.

[RandalThor]

As per the Passive Defense Spells: I can see some of them that affect a hex side or a 90 degree arc, that have the same or close to the same properties as they do now. So you would need 4 (6 top and bottom) or 6 ( of them cover you in all directions.
MDC

Well, I would use the arc as an active method of detection, and go with an omni-directional method for passive, even though that would cut down the range. Example: Actively using the 90-degree arc to search for [whatever] you have 200' range, but if you use it passively it would only have like a 50-60' range. If you really need the range, then you use it like it says now searching a 5' diameter area way out to 300+ foot range. Options, option, options. Plus, I would definitely give them some sort of bonus for actively searching, it is smarter to look for danger, than to not.

I forget; so some of the spell lists in the Essence Companion give you contingency-type abilities? If so, that could go a long way to dealing with this issue. (That, admittedly, only I seem to have.  )

[RandalThor]

As for how fast a spell can be cast from an item, I would go with 1 round or instant, if the spell itself is instant. Just makes more sense to me that way.

[yammahoper]

A real good reason to have spells from items require 75% activity is it prevents fighters equiping bladeturn bracelets and becomeing killing machines.  Imagine a mages guard so equiped, with the items keyed to only work for those designated as his private guard? 

Now add shield spells, deflect spells, leaping, AT spells, etc; a fighter could over time gain most of the useful defensive/movemnt spells of the essence user while maintaining full OB to boot.

[pastaav]

A real good reason to have spells from items require 75% activity is it prevents fighters equiping bladeturn bracelets and becomeing killing machines.  Imagine a mages guard so equiped, with the items keyed to only work for those designated as his private guard? 

Now add shield spells, deflect spells, leaping, AT spells, etc; a fighter could over time gain most of the useful defensive/movemnt spells of the essence user while maintaining full OB to boot.

Indeed, further items casting as instant spells will also lead to the funny situation that it is better to hire a staff of firebolt user than an actual magician that can cast the spell naturally.

[Marc R]

In my experience using that option does juice items, but constant or many use items are rare in games I run (and most I play in) so the "Bracelet of Bladeturn" would only affect round 1, then be useless for 24 hours, while an actual caster could keep casting it every round. Even if the option makes items far juicier, the limitations on how often they could be used kept it from being too much.

IMO the logic built into "items cast as instants" is more akin to magic as tech, where the user isn't casting, they are pointing and using. . .but for that logic to fit, there would need to be a malfunction table rather than spell failure on the user for that kind of item. Not wanting to write up a table like that, I stopped using that option in favor of 9.1.

[RandalThor]

A real good reason to have spells from items require 75% activity is it prevents fighters equiping bladeturn bracelets and becomeing killing machines.  Imagine a mages guard so equiped, with the items keyed to only work for those designated as his private guard? 

Now add shield spells, deflect spells, leaping, AT spells, etc; a fighter could over time gain most of the useful defensive/movemnt spells of the essence user while maintaining full OB to boot.

Yup, and if someone is going to go through all of that in order to get those abilities, I say let them. What the players can do, so can NPCs. And if you say, "well, it just becomes a battle of escalation," what the heck is increasing in levels about if it isn't "escalation" of capabilities? It seems as though so many of you just want the 20th level fighter/mage/whatever, to only have a few higher bonus items (like, a +20 sword instead of a +5) and higher skill bonuses (but not too high) than the 1st level character. Why? What is the point in gaining in power and ability, if you aren't actually doing that?!? In a game that is inherently as deadly as RM, I think it is totally OK for the characters to be able to increase their odds of survival; wouldn't you want to be able to? (And coolness, lets not forget coolness....)

Indeed, further items casting as instant spells will also lead to the funny situation that it is better to hire a staff of firebolt user than an actual magician that can cast the spell naturally.

And if all you are looking for are firebolts on demand, it is the better option. Now, if you want more than just firebolts, get the spellcaster, they are likely to be able to do more than just toss firebolts. (They can also cast Fireballs!!!  )

[kevinmccollum]

Are people using items with unlimited charges? Usually, an item that can cast a spell was a charged item or had a number of uses per day.

One of the gripes I had with RMSS was they left out the rule where items cast just as if the person weilding it were casting it. In other words, not instant but class 1, 2, 3 or if the normal spell was instant, the item cast as instant.

[yammahoper]

Are people using items with unlimited charges? Usually, an item that can cast a spell was a charged item or had a number of uses per day.

One of the gripes I had with RMSS was they left out the rule where items cast just as if the person weilding it were casting it. In other words, not instant but class 1, 2, 3 or if the normal spell was instant, the item cast as instant.

All spells from items in RMSS are class one and require 75% activity, even for normally instant spells.  That is the default rule, according to Treasure Companion.

[Marc R]

It's a variation of the 9.1 rule referenced above from RMC(2).

Do you think forcing instants to 75% was a conscious change or porting the RM2 faster item casting option and accidentally leaving off that last line "Instants are still instant".

[yammahoper]

The rule is quite specific, with a note about constants, so what else could it be but a concious, intended ruling?

[jdale]

It seems like that makes some instant spells effectively worthless. To pick an obvious example, Landing is drastically less useful if it takes a 75% action to cast.

I would not be inclined to play it that way.

[arakish]

Interesting topic.  Been reading the comments.  Agree with some, disagree with others.  In my games, I have a flat rule: 1 round, 1 spell, no exceptions.

rmfr

[yammahoper]

Im sure you would feel differently about landing if you were falling.  After all, 100% activity can be used up in a second.  OTOH, it doesnt bother me at all if some spells make lousy items.

[markc]

 I think that the other big thing is what happens when you add in Psi from SM:P and all Psi skills are instants. Does that give Psi a leg up on spells or spells a leg up since all Psi after actions are refractory recovery actions?
MDC

[yammahoper]

I don't know, does it?

I have yet to play in a game were SM psions were ported over to RM. 

Yet even in RM2, the default option in SUC was tha spells cannot cancel psions and psions cannot dispell spells, so a big gulf already exist between the two, traditionally anyway.

[kevinmccollum]

It seems like that makes some instant spells effectively worthless. To pick an obvious example, Landing is drastically less useful if it takes a 75% action to cast.

I would not be inclined to play it that way.

I agree. Some of the instant spells appear to be reaction spells. Take a look at Lifekeeping. It is cast AFTER receiving a death blow. Landing is only useful after taking a fall/jump. You can't do it if you lose initiative?

[pastaav]

It seems like that makes some instant spells effectively worthless. To pick an obvious example, Landing is drastically less useful if it takes a 75% action to cast.

Why? There is nothing that says the spell will not start to function after zero seconds even though it takes 75% action to complete. The same situation exist for a number of spells that can be argued to imply that they need to activate directly to make sense. What the 75% action rule means in practice is that you can't mix using a magic item with melee attacks.